Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

[Sydney]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

DIY Pro speakers in general don't have high resale value.
Of course expensive is relative ( like I mentioned earlier ).
I don't look at it as "wasted potential" but rather a compromise ( based upon Hoffman's Iron Law ).
The difference in output is negated if you have to use amp power to compensate for low output on the bottom octave.
And remember that the recommendation for BF horns: a HP filter need to be in place to attenuate the very frequencies that you stated as desirable ( the 30Hz range ) to protect the driver.
Also the length of a horn determines how low it can reproduce that is why they are need to be so big.

Maybe I misunderstand your intended use...
But if the application is NOT for FOH but rather to use on the stage - you are setting up for problems in that the stage will be subject to excessive low frequency high SPL sound which creates problems for ALL the stage members - that is why bands are behind the FOH system.
Historically bands have had to come up with ways to have high SPL out front without overwhelming the stage.

[RogueCow]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

I definitely understand your points, the biggest thing I would think about is price and efficiency.

Though i don't need anything for huge events right now, i would like to have the option to up the sound level down the road, without having to sell and buy completely new cab's, rather just building another one or two. I also think that using more efficient (in terms of watts/volts) sub enclosures allows for the most expansion per amp.

Looking up the drivers, the bass-ic (sooo funny) drivers start at $180 and only go up from there, while i am shooting to land in about the $150-$200 per completed sub, range

The Pro's And Con's as i can see through your arguments are:

Pros for 18" bass reflex:
-Simpler construction, much less time to design, build, and setup.
-Smaller size/weight
-Linear response curve, eliminating need for time intensive EQ-ing

Cons for the 18" bass reflex:
-Expensive
-Probably lower resale value vs. a titan or tuba (correct me if I am wrong here...)
-Requires more watts vs. horns (wasted potential)

That is my perspective on what you said, if I got something bass ackwards let me know.

I still think i am leaning towards a tuba or titan system for value (both financial and spl/watt). Construction wise, I look at it as somewhat of a summer project than a chore. Transportation wise, I am young, and so is the rest of the band.

THAT SAID,I would still be interested in reading up on some designs and looking up some charts to make an informed decision...

The last time I went off on my own trying to pick out sub designs i ended up posting here asking about 15 year old, obsolete, scoop designs. SOOO if you could indulge me with a link or two that would be sweet.

Thanks guys

[Sydney]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

What about the Labhorn design? I could be wrong, but I thought I read user reviews that they had high output into the low 30's. But this was with 4 Labhorns clustered, each with two 12" Eminence Lab Gen II drivers.

A LabHorn is 45" x 45" x 22.5" = 26.4 cu ft. ( BIG - roughly 4x the size of a typical Keyboard monitor )
AND is made of dense 3/4" plywood ( HEAVY )

[Randy L]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

What about the Labhorn design? I could be wrong, but I thought I read user reviews that they had high output into the low 30's. But this was with 4 Labhorns clustered, each with two 12" Eminence Lab Gen II drivers.
Like Sydney is suggesting, I too think (considering this isn't going to be for large crowds or huge volume levels) a bass reflex design using quality 18" drivers might be the best approach.
Though this might be apples-oranges, I've had very good success using a single dual 18" sub cabinet for a teen hip-hop hungry crowd, though I was driving it with 2000+ watts. Bear in mind that even a very good subwoofer will need some power to move enough air to hear and feel a difference.

[Sydney]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

Well I can't speak for the other dudes, but I view speaker cabs as just devices with performance characteristics. A pragmatic view that treats designs as tools to achieve desired goals.
I don't have commercial interest in any design to influence or motivate my decisions; As a "free agent" this allows me to just make objective decisions based upon target goals and limitations.
I've heard horn cabs as far back as the 1960's, including Klipschorns and a variety of Pro Sound Horns. I've seen bands use them for direct musical instrumentation ( the bass player for Trapeze comes to mind ) and more commonly for FOH ( PA ) use.
This included perhaps one of the largest all horn systems ever assembled - at the World Series of Rock in Cleveland in the 70's. It featured 8 LF horns that had mouths 8' square.
One universal truth about horns is they need to be big - No free lunch. I've got a T24 and it's not small nor easy to tote.
Having to break down, transport and set up cabs is a serious consideration for some, so weight and size influence decisions.
In the past amps were low powered; designs had to be as sensitive as possible, so Big Horns had to be used.
Technology made high power amps available; that offered the option of using smaller ( albeit less sensitive designs ).
Don Keele wrote a paper on evaluating horns vs direct radiator cabs. He objectively details the pluses and minuses of each.

Your application appears to me to be little different then that of keyboard players who use synthesizers. I had extensive experience with MiniMoogs and ARP's ( and musical synthesis ) in the 70's.
( I know about LF sine waves :D )
The majority used keyboard monitors that included 18" woofers and they were about 5 - 7 cu ft and their response was linear and didn't require EQ to compensate for non-flat response.
Your decision reflecting your goals - it just struck me as the wrong approach.

[RogueCow]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

Well RC, In light of commentary ( such as Post 20 paragraph 2 ) I would not had have made the same decision on what enclosure to use.

Actually Sydney, You are "you" lol. It just seemed like a couple of other dudes echoed your sentiment exactly, so it was a "you" as in "you guys", instead of "sydney"

[Sydney]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

So when you are talking about different enclosure choices, are you suggesting migrating away from the horn design?

Who is you?

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

So, initially, i understand my decision for the short term, sub goal to be:

2x BP102 loaded Tuba 30's (narrow)
vs
1x Kappa 15LF loaded Titan 39 (27")

(i am just quickly going off of the kits from leland for prices, tubas aren't half the price, but $60 - $80 is significant savings enough...)

You'll get a lot more answers asking owners on my forum.

[RogueCow]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

So when you are talking about different enclosure choices, are you suggesting migrating away from the horn design?

I read up on some forum posts and i found the tuba vs. titan comparison explained interestingly...

"If you go Tubas, you can build more to go louder. If you build Titans, you can build more to go lower."

Looking up some of the pricing (haven't seen any plans yet, and both are difficulty 5... so i will factor build difficulty in the meantime), i would be able to swing a pair of Tuba 30's LOOONG before titan 39's

BUT i would be building the titan/tuba with the lowest/2nd lowest price recomended driver, so i dont know where that factors in...

So, initially, i understand my decision for the short term, sub goal to be:

2x BP102 loaded Tuba 30's (narrow)
vs
1x Kappa 15LF loaded Titan 39 (27")

(i am just quickly going off of the kits from leland for prices, tubas aren't half the price, but $60 - $80 is significant savings enough...)

[RogueCow]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

Just an update to this thread from my end.

I have purchase a Crown XTI 2000, which will take care of limiting, crossovers, etc, etc...

I still like the idea of doing a T48. Relative to the other bands and most of the scenes i will be playing to, it will be shocking and awesome enough (i could probably hook up a pair of car subs and get the same reaction lol).

I have yet to build anything, or buy any parts, so which enclosure I build is up in the air until then. If someone wants to point me towards an enclosure design in the same price range as the T48, perhaps being more effective than the T48 as a single or dual setup, let me hear it.

I eventually plan on adding a pair of tops to the system when i get some extra cash, but starting out with a simple bass rig that allows for expansion is the ticket right now...

thanks for all the help so far,
You have really helped me learn alot

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

I'd concur on that.. in general it takes about 4 horn subs before you start to get the full potential .

True, in terms of getting all that you can get with respect to sensitivity all the way down to the corner frequency. But even on a one to one basis a horn will beat a direct radiator, usually by a good margin.

[Sydney]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

I don't know why anybody would use a JBL in a DIY project unless they happened to have some laying around or got them for a song from sombody that didn't have a clue.

Found deals from Bank repo sales and used.

Though this is not RC's scenario: One reason for using JBL is contract rider requirements. I've heard stated from managers and promoters that they can't risk using a provider with an unknown so they hedge their bets and specify name brands. Contract Riders often include a list of acceptable and unacceptable equipment. It isn't necessarily logically but it is what they want.
Sound Providers know this too and some look at it as part of the capital cost for getting the bigger gigs.

[Paul O]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

Well RC, In light of commentary ( such as Post 20 paragraph 2 ) I would not had have made the same decision on what enclosure to use. I would have "eighteen-ed" it with a cab half that volume.

I'd concur on that.. in general it takes about 4 horn subs before you start to get the full potential though I'm not sure the same applies to the T48 having never heard one.

And my experience with the 2241. They are great robust drivers and the primary point that guys P & M about is the price.

That's for good reason though... they are good but JBL has priced them way beyond reason at levels that will get you 2 to 4 other brand drivers with equal or better performance per unit, hell you can buy a brand new complete subwoofer(SRX718) for the same price($800) as a bare 2241 driver. I don't know why anybody would use a JBL in a DIY project unless they happened to have some laying around or got them for a song from sombody that didn't have a clue.

[Sydney]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

Well RC, In light of commentary ( such as Post 20 paragraph 2 ) I would not had have made the same decision on what enclosure to use.
Rory's comments are in line with the numerous reports ( I've been provided from those whose opinion I respect and trust ).
And my experience with the 2241. A friend had used 6 for FOH w touring bands and audiences up to 10K. They are great robust drivers and the primary point that guys P & M about is the price.
I think you are in for a bit of a shock when you see a 16 cu ft cab. Pack space becomes a consideration when it gets moved and transported.
I would have "eighteen-ed" it with a cab half that volume.
But good luck on your choice

[AMC]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

Sound source (laptop or something)-> CX3400 Cross Over -> GPS 900 Amp -> Titan 48

Correct, but don't forget to have a high pass in their some where, the x-over should have that ability, and the amp may well also.