Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

[AMC]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

As far as "tops" go, to provide something that would provide the 100-200+hz above the 100-120hz crossover point of the sub, would that look like another (smaller) sub box of the same type, with a smaller driver capable of higher frequencies?

So, as a standalone (MEANING the mixer is only doing the bass drops, nothing else) system , it would look like this? (starting out with just one or two 15"s?)

mixer-amp 1- low pass X'Over (100 Hz) - 15" Rear Horn Loaded Scoop
------------------------------ --------10" Rear Horn Loaded Scoop
mixer-amp 2- low pass X'over (100 Hz) - 15" Rear Horn Loaded Scoop
-------------------------------------- 10" Rear Horn Loaded Scoop

Thanks alot for your advice,
I know it's easier for you guys to use your middle finger to point me to the search bar, so i appreciate this greatly.

One of the problems with scoop designs is that they unload below a set frequency, which can make them 'dangerous' when over driven (easy to blow your driver). The same problem exists with BR cabs, BTW. If you use a BR or scoop design, you must use a high pass filter, it is not optional. I built a scoop with an added a top for myself, but I am careful with it. Scoops have a unique sound, and if you have not heard them, you may not like them. From the system you described it is no wonder your being drowned out, your 4X10 bass cab is trying to compete with 8 12s. I would bet your MarkBass head is capable of driving more, and I would consider, as a start, just adding a couple of horns or BR cabs to it. Then you would use the 4X10 you have now as the 'top'. Look into the BFM tuba designs, they wont unload, and will drop to 30Hz. 2 tuba 30's would add considerable presence to the system. You may find with that system, you could drop back to a 2X10 top.

PS That particular scoop design you linked to is about 40 years old. There are far better designs out there now, in spit of the scoop hate you will see here.

[Paul O]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

for shows we output vocals and the kick drum through a couple of Powered PA monitors.

So how does that work for the vocals? If that's OK especially before the kick drum is added which it shouldn't be anyway, then that's all you need for vocals and adding some decent subs to augment the bass and kick that comes off the stage will certainly "round out" the sound a bit. Get the scoops idea out of your head completely, it was a half-assed bass/kick design 40yrs ago and it's completely outclassed by modern fully horn loaded or even reflex sub designs, and a scoop is no good at all for fullrange use. Your typical bar band PA now consists of a pair of 18" reflex subs with 12" or 15" two-way PA speakers over top, those 18" subs will cover the 30-80hz range for the most part without much problem depending upon the drivers used, if you cheap out there you will only get 40-45hz low end extension but with $200 PV Lowriders or the $300 Eminince Definimax you get high output and the extension you want but you'll need at least 800w per cabinet to see all of the potential, but that's something you can add at a later date.. you'll still be way ahead with only 450w per box.

[RogueCow]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

This is more of a hobby then something i get paid to do, so i am trying to cut the costs as much as possible.

As much as i would love to sink a whole bunch of money into this for the eventual bass drop, i still need guitars, pedals, and other doodads that make the heart go pitter patter.

I understand that this is somewhat equivalent to running car subs straight off of the new aftermarket stereo, rather than it's own amps.

But if it saves me a couple hundred dollars and gets the job somewhat done, i'm happy.

[RogueCow]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

As far as "tops" go, to provide something that would provide the 100-200+hz above the 100-120hz crossover point of the sub, would that look like another (smaller) sub box of the same type, with a smaller driver capable of higher frequencies?

So, as a standalone (MEANING the mixer is only doing the bass drops, nothing else) system , it would look like this? (starting out with just one or two 15"s?)

mixer-amp 1- low pass X'Over (100 Hz) - 15" Rear Horn Loaded Scoop
------------------------------ --------10" Rear Horn Loaded Scoop
mixer-amp 2- low pass X'over (100 Hz) - 15" Rear Horn Loaded Scoop
-------------------------------------- 10" Rear Horn Loaded Scoop

Thanks alot for your advice,
I know it's easier for you guys to use your middle finger to point me to the search bar, so i appreciate this greatly.

[RogueCow]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

currently the setup (just fyi's):
5150 Guitar Amp run through a marshall 4x12 cabinet
Traynor 100 watt YCS tube head run through a 4x12 cabinet
Markbass bass head run through a 4x10 cab

We use the Yorkville AP818 output vocals only to about 4 10" monitors in practice,
and for shows we output vocals and the kick drum through a couple of Powered PA monitors.

If we were to run two subs off of the mixer, using one of the on-board amps (450 each) for each sub box, would that have a big enough effect?

I am not looking so much for an earth-shattering, overwhelming-ness. just enough so it is heard/felt with the mix.

I could probably afford to make one of these (a second in the near future),
is a design like this along the lines of what i need ?

If you have a better place for designs then by all means let me know,
like i said, i am only a week or two into the research part of this, and there is enough to learn just about drivers and amps, let alone enclosures...

[jont]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

Paul O is correct, 250 watts @ 8ohm is not going to drive a sub that can compete with any rock band.

What bass rig is used?
What mains do you user for the PA?
What kind of venue do you play in?

Powered mixers are great for monitors but I would plan on saving up for some workhorse powered mains if you are packing in a bunch of people to a club without a adequate PA.

[AMC]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

i will probably just put this on the backburner until the rest of the band can afford to front some of the cost.

Thanks all

It does not have to be an all or none. First off, others are making assumptions about the rest of the band, and what it would take to get over them. since you have told us nothing about that, I will assume nothing. You can start now, by choosing a good design and starting with one unit. You will need multiples in then end, but 1 is a good place to start. Comparing the designs you have mentioned, a horn will tend to be more efficient, but also tend to be larger (but not necessarily heavier). So here you need to consider your limitations, you will need more drivers and watts in a reflex cabs, but you MAY save stage space, then again you may not when you add all the extra drivers. down side of a folded horn is that a traditional folded horn will crap out too low to play a bass through exclusively, so you have to add a 'top'. A scoop type folded horn will not have that problem, but has a null between 100 and 150hz, so they should be run with a top also. That being said, here is my suggestion...

Add a folded horn to what you are doing now, either type. If built correctly, it will augment the low end. as you can afford, add another and proper 'tops' to it. You can build it all together (like the BFM design) but separates can make transport easier. But FIRST, you have to pick a design, and then get the right driver, OR, pick a driver, and design around it, you can't pick the driver and design independently.

[RogueCow]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

Thoughts? No single 250w 15' subwoofer will come even remotely close to "punching out" over the top of a 5 piece metal band. The capability you're looking for requires a stack of double 18 reflex or horn loaded subs and thousands of watts in amplifier power.

That seems pretty definitive to me.
At this point my budget is far too low to be looking into a couple of dual-driver boxes and thousands of watts of power.

We mainly play small basement clubs/taverns, so i wasn't completely sure if 250 (or even 450) would make a huge difference in sound.

Now that i know i am looking for something more significantly sized to make a difference, i will probably just put this on the backburner until the rest of the band can afford to front some of the cost.

Thanks all

[Paul O]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

The usual frequency range is about 75-30 HZ
This enclosure will be running off of one amp of a yorkville AP818 (@8ohms pushes about 250RMS, 4 ohms 450).
which will punch out more over a full 5 piece band

Thoughts? No single 250w 15' subwoofer will come even remotely close to "punching out" over the top of a 5 piece metal band. The capability you're looking for requires a stack of double 18 reflex or horn loaded subs and thousands of watts in amplifier power.

[Taterworks]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

The Series II 15" is certainly a well made driver, but I think it's overpriced for the displacement it offers. There are so many alternatives that offer significantly higher displacement/dollar. The PA460-8, DCS450-4, and DVC385-88 as examples.

Pro sound drivers have been using accordion surrounds to good effect for years. Rubber surround IMO, should not be a "selling" point for a pro sound application, especially if it might be used outdoors or transported in the sun often. Many rubber surrounds are not UV stabilised and will actually break down faster than cloth.

Regards,
Eric

Meyer Sound uses rubber surrounds on their 8" and 10" low-frequency drivers, as well as the 6" drivers in the MINA line array. Community has used Eminence-built drivers with rubber roll surrounds for years in their premium "Solutions"-series subwoofer line (ending just recently when they upgraded the drivers to the same ones used in their iBOX-series subwoofers). The Series II drivers are also built by Eminence, using their standard rubber surround, so while I would have to check with my contact at Eminence, I don't think they would sell a surround made from a non-UV-stabilized formula as their standard rubber surround for auto, home, and pro applications.

Rubber roll surrounds, in general, provide better stability at high excursions than the typical accordion-style fabric surround, and while some new fabric surrounds have appeared with improved performance at long excursions (with a multi-roll profile instead of a multi-fold profile), they usually aren't seen on 'affordable' drivers.

To sum up, I honestly don't think the UV breakdown issue will affect these drivers, and for a given frame size, these drivers still offer excellent performance for the dollar. If the OP wants to build a box the size of a Meyer 650 subwoofer, the PA460-8 becomes another possibility, but those would be extremely large enclosures.

[mdocod]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

The Series II 15" is certainly a well made driver, but I think it's overpriced for the displacement it offers. There are so many alternatives that offer significantly higher displacement/dollar. The PA460-8, DCS450-4, and DVC385-88 as examples.

Pro sound drivers have been using accordion surrounds to good effect for years. Rubber surround IMO, should not be a "selling" point for a pro sound application, especially if it might be used outdoors or transported in the sun often. Many rubber surrounds are not UV stabilised and will actually break down faster than cloth.

Regards,
Eric

[Brian Steele]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

Rory's suggestion seems a good one, considering the 30 Hz requirement (I would have recommended the SS15 II design, but that only goes down to 40 Hz). Unlike Rory though, I think a slot-loaded vented sub should work fine, as the upper limit of the passband is 70 Hz. I think you may need more drivers, more power, or a combination of both. What's your budget?

[Taterworks]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

A typical driver and vented enclosure found in pro audio at the MI level probably won't give you the results you're looking for, and neither will a folded horn design (in a practical size). I would look at a pair of vented enclosures with two Dayton Series II 15" drivers per box wired in parallel for a 4-ohm load, and the enclosures will need to be fairly large to provide the needed efficiency. Vent the box with a pair of 6"-diameter or larger round vents (not triangular or square); note that vent length will be limited by what you can fit into the box.

The key benefit to the Series II drivers in this application, in addition to their low Fs, is their rubber roll surround which is more stable at high excursions than the commonly-seen treated fabric 'accordion' edge. Other than this, the Series II drivers are built more like PA drivers than hi-fi drivers and should take a lot of abuse. Use these cabinets below your typical PA main speakers; these will replace your current subwoofers.

[RogueCow]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

These are a little "harder" than my taste in music, but this is the general style and usage of the sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uevZ26FZ_1M

[jefffluker]

Re: Best enclosure/driver for a metal-core bass drop

I'd like to take a listen. Which song or songs contain the "large bass drop" you describe?