Econowave(s) for center cluster?

[mpotoka]

I have a room, approximately 50' x 100' x 15', that I am going to install a PA system (also for recorded music).

One of our parents that has extensive live sound experience, and is also familiar with how we use our space, recommended a center cluster.

The "stage" area is centered on the 100' wall. He suggested placing the center cluster about 10' from the back wall. The nice thing is I have a nice steel beam overhead, so I have a great fastening option for safety sake.

He was going to get back to me with some commercial recommendations, but I would prefer to build them.

I was thinking building some econowaves plus a couple BFM subs (subs on the floor). I like the size of the Mini S-8s, but realize there is more SPL potential from the SR Compacts.

Any recommendations?

[Paul O]

Re: Econowave(s) for center cluster?

The "stage" area is centered on the 100' wall. He suggested placing the center cluster about 10' from the back wall.

A hanging center cluster is a good idea but it has to go over the stage and be aimed towards the audience not placed at the back of the room facing the stage. The cabinets have to be rated for flying as well which involves special hardware and construction techniques that's will have to be incorporated if you build your own boxes.

[mpotoka]

Re: Econowave(s) for center cluster?

A hanging center cluster is a good idea but it has to go over the stage and be aimed towards the audience not placed at the back of the room facing the stage. The cabinets have to be rated for flying as well which involves special hardware and construction techniques that's will have to be incorporated if you build your own boxes.

Paul,

Thanks for your comments--I realize I said back wall, but what I meant was back from the wall your back faces while on stage--so yes the location we are planning is in agreement with your suggestion.

As for hanging--I plan on dropping some unistrut off the beam and bolting a platform on to attach the speakers to.

Would econowaves suit my purposes in this situation? 85% speech reinforcement, 15% recorded music. Max capacity is 300 people.

[isaeagle4031]

Re: Econowave(s) for center cluster?

How much power are you planning to use? How many cabinets? I'm not sure on using the econowaves for a large room only because the xover point is lower for better near field integration and use. The lower point makes for less power handling of the CD. How much lower depends on which version of them you decide to build.

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Econowave(s) for center cluster?

One of our parents that has extensive live sound experience, and is also familiar with how we use our space, recommended a center cluster.

What do you mean by cluster?

[mpotoka]

Re: Econowave(s) for center cluster?

What do you mean by cluster?

I am assuming to cover 180 degrees around the stage it may require 2 or 3 cabinets hung overhead, pointing outward and down. I have not heard back on his specific recommendation, so I do not know specifically what he envisions as a cluster.

Since I am building them, I may incorporate all drivers in a single, multi faced box. I have a skyjack lift for installation so size is an aesthetic factor less than an installation issue.

I also assume they both/all would be running mono.

[mpotoka]

Re: Econowave(s) for center cluster?

How much power are you planning to use? How many cabinets? I'm not sure on using the econowaves for a large room only because the xover point is lower for better near field integration and use. The lower point makes for less power handling of the CD. How much lower depends on which version of them you decide to build.

I took measurements at one event, and I doubt I will ever need more than 90 dB. The question I'm not sure how to answer is how to make sure those folks sitting 45' away can hear everything as well. 99% of the time it will be a person giving a speech to a room full of people, or maybe watch a video.


If I'm not mistaken, the power requirement will be determined by those goals and the efficiency of the speakers used.

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Econowave(s) for center cluster?

I am assuming to cover 180 degrees around the stage it may require 2 or 3 cabinets hung overhead, pointing outward and down.

Not a good idea. This explains why. It's a safe bet it shows the stuff he used to use back in the day, and why we don't use it anymore.
http://www.gtaust.com/filter/05/07.shtml

[AMC]

Re: Econowave(s) for center cluster?

First thing you have to understand, is that task you have in front of you is a virtually impossible one.
1. You have a room shape that is very difficult to work with.
2. You are asking the system to do at least 2 very different tasks.
3. And I would guess, like everyone else, you want it to be cheap and invisible.

So that being said, the word of the day is.... wait for it... compromise. IIRC, you said 80% would be speaking to a group, then that should be your main goal. Speaking as a audience member, one of the better systems I have listened to in a room like this, used a couple of smaller boxes on each side of the stage. I guess you could call them line arrays, but I am getting to hate that phrase. They used 6 or 8 inch drivers, about 8 of them, and some tweeters. You got no bass, but for voice they were very clear.

If you wanted to use the econowave designs, and I do believe they are good designs, I would look at setting up three speakers across the front; center, and maybe 2/3 of the way from the center to the wall. Don't point them down, but put them up high. Run them all mono for a talk, and you could go stereo for music. Now, the 8 inch versions are most likely going to be driven to their absolute limit in a room this size, so I would consider stepping up. It has always been my contention that for voice use, many small speakers, playing softly, works better then a few large ones, playing loud, and the cluster idea, is, in essence, one large speaker, playing very loud. All this is simply a guess however.

PS, get this part correct before you even worry about the subs.

[mpotoka]

Re: Econowave(s) for center cluster?



I thought I would do a basic drawing of the stage/seating layout to show what space I'm trying to cover. There are three small squares--those are posts.

Bill I read the article, and it showed one situation where they had 3 speakers together in the center. They said you could eliminate the center speaker but that it would create a sonic hole in the middle of the space. I'm wondering--since we have the column in the line of sight and we don't put seats there--maybe I could get along quite happily with that sonic hole.

Or should I look into several smaller speakers?

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Econowave(s) for center cluster?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]33908[/ATTACH]

I thought I would do a basic drawing of the stage/seating layout to show what space I'm trying to cover. There are three small squares--those are posts.

Bill I read the article, and it showed one situation where they had 3 speakers together in the center. They said you could eliminate the center speaker but that it would create a sonic hole in the middle of the space. I'm wondering--since we have the column in the line of sight and we don't put seats there--maybe I could get along quite happily with that sonic hole.

Or should I look into several smaller speakers?

The issue with using multiple cabs horizontally arrayed is that you will either have comb filtering or you will have a hole, and there's no getting around that, so don't horizontally array cabs. Everyone did back in the day, because they didn't know any better, assuming that speakers and sound waves work like light bulbs and light waves. They don't.
Use a single source. If the field of coverage isn't wide enough, add another source, at least ten feet away. If the field of coverage remains not wide enough repeat as required. Once the coverage issue is resolved if it's not loud enough stack more cabs, vertically. Of course they have to be cabs designed to be vertically stacked. Your room doesn't look all that challenging, a source above each front corner of the stage should do. That's what The Who concert I went to last night had, and that was with 12,000 seats.

Typical cabs of the Econowave style don't stack well vertically, but it still can be done, in pairs. The upper cab is placed upside down, so that the two HF horns are adjacent. Wider dispersion can be realized if the two cabs are rotated in different directions, creating a spiral array. It's not perfect, but it's far preferable to horizontal placement.

[mpotoka]

Re: Econowave(s) for center cluster?

With an event this coming Saturday I had to move forward. I built two econowave mini s-8 speakers and two tuba 24s. I picked up a crown xls1000 and dcx2496. I have the mixer inputs summed and running the econowaves mono on one channel and the tubas on the other. The amp is rated at 2 ohms/channel so I bought 2 4 ohm bp102s for the tubas and have them running parallel. I spent a few hours Saturday with REW getting the crossover/eq on the 2496 setup. The econowaves really start straining at about 100 db (measured in center of listening area). However, that level is much louder than we have ever played anything in the space-so I think it will be just fine. Someday I'll upgrade the tops-the tubas were cruising along quite handily.

Pics tomorrow

Cheers