Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

[dalbert02]

A couple of times a year we have a block party. As the local audio weeny, I provide the tunes. My old home theater system consists of Adcom GFA-545II amps and KEF Q90 speakers. Although the combo sound pretty good, they are not really loud enough. So I bought a Crown XLS-1000 amp off eBay for cheap and someone gave me some JBL 8340A Pro theater speakers http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/genera...?PId=200&MId=1 They play loud enough but do not really sound that great, plus they are awkward to mount. No real bass and not very good highs, kinda harsh in my opinion. I fixed the bass by mixing in a Kicker 10" sub taken from my truck with a 300W amp running off a lab-grade 12V 60A power supply. It fills the bottom in okay enough, but the highs still kinda suck. I am only playing MP3s or a Pandora station, nothing crazy. I live on a cul-de-sac so I do not need to go super loud either, but I do want it to sound good. I tried using a iPhone app "BBE sonic maximizer" and I could improve the sound slightly but it still wasn't all that good and I could not use the software with Pandora. So, I think I need new speakers. Should I buy a pair of Baringers or Peavey 15" two-ways at about $400-500 for the pair or build something? I am a pretty good wood worker and have built speakers in the past, but I am not sure if I would gain anything from building over buying. Would I be better off buying an equalizer (about $150 for a dbx brand) and try to add some sizzle that way? I have heard some local DJs and I can tell you I don't much care for MTX or Pyle brands, they sound pretty bad in my opinion so if you can think of something that sounds better then those two brands but stay in the $500 range that would be great. Thanks in advance.

[jont]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

An EQ along with some bass bins may do the trick.
Building decent DIY PA tops is usually expensive, look up the econowaves for ideas.

Used Yamaha clubs or some older EV tops is another way to go if you have them in the area, there are lots of passive PA models out there.

The low budget Alto powered boxes are said to sound better than the Berry/Peavey/Mackie thump speakers, The more expensive EV ZLX are even better.

[badman]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

I'd buy- there's lots out there, used, and some screaming deals if you're patient. I got some VERY fine JBL-based systems used from disneyland for $75 a piece. The woofer MSRP is $450 (2206h).

[Brian Steele]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

It's not surprising that you're getting no bass from those JBLs - they're designed to be used flat up against the wall and even then there's nothing really below 75 Hz, so you need to use a decent subwoofer anyway. They probably sound pretty anemic if not mounted as they were designed to be. I believe that they're designed for use in HTs or small cinemas as surrounds (a local cinema uses exactly those speaker models for that purpose).

If you want to DIY something and you have a means of taking measurements, perhaps you can DIY some tops using those drivers and a redesigned x-over to meet your requirements. You should give serious consideration towards a proper bass unit to cover 100 Hz and below though. Given your existing tops (redesigned as I suggested), a good 12" pro audio driver in a tapped-horn or 6th order series-tuned BP can do a good job of filling in the bass duties. Power it all with a Behringer iNuke 3000DSP and you'll likely have all the power and control (EQ/filtering/limiting) that you need for a pretty good small block party.

BTW, here's what I use for impromptu PA work (my car audio system (Alpine PDX-F6 and PDX-M12 and a Pioneer PRS-80 deck) provides the amplification and EQ duties):

Tops - http://www.diysubwoofers.org/projects/home/blastoramas/
Subwoofer - http://www.diysubwoofers.org/projects/other/PA310-TH/

Total Cost (not including wood and my time): ~US$235

Note: I'm actually in the process of designing a different TH to use with that PA310 driver. The current one works fine, but I want one that fits a little better into my car .

[Paul O]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

Definitely look to see what you can find in a 12" or 15" pro audio speaker in the used market in your area.. because just about anything of this type that's not blown will outrun what you have now. But this is a DIY site so if you're up for a build of your own there are lots of good designs you could take a run at or you could purchase a kit.

[Hackomatic]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

If your budget is really shoestring, these folks might be an option. I don't own any of their product, but folks I know that do say they are a great bang for the buck . . NAYY

http://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/

[spasticteapot]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

I'd try to pick up some used speakers on Craigslist. A friend bought a pair of massive auditorium speakers for $150; you won't get more SPL for the dollar.

[dalbert02]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

After scouring Craig's List for a few months and not seeing anything worthwhile, I decided I will try building new cabinets. I found that the same drivers (JBL 127H-3 and JBL 2412H) are used in JBL M410 speakers.
http://www.jblpro.com/mpro/PDF/MP410.pdf After playing with WinISD for a couple a days, it looks like a 60L cabinet with a 4" dia port 5" long will be relatively flat to about 40Hz, the -3db point. Not sure why the M410s are only good to 62Hz, but we'll see what happens (I am guessing it is because they are about 50L with small vents). If the highs still suck, I will try a Selenium D220Ti driver. I am not expecting a miracle, but if they sound ok I will be happy to save a few hundred dollars. So far I bought $100 worth of parts from here (grill, handles, horns, cabinet corners, etc.) and a 8'x4' sheet of 3/4" MDF was $35 at Home Depot. I figure paint and finishing will bring the total close to $200 for the pair. Pics to come soon unless they are too embarrassing, I see the work you guys do and my attempt might be a bit shameful. Thanks for all your suggestions.
-dave

[wg_ski]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

After playing with WinISD for a couple a days, it looks like a 60L cabinet with a 4" dia port 5" long will be relatively flat to about 40Hz, the -3db point. Not sure why the M410s are only good to 62Hz, but we'll see what happens (I am guessing it is because they are about 50L with small vents).

This is one of those cases of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should". In the larger lower tuned box you will run into excursion limits faster. In professional use, it's a recipe for blown drivers. But if what you're building is really an oversize stereo system and you don't get stupid with the bass boost and sustained clipping, the speakers won't really be in much danger. Almost NO home system can handle full power down to its -3dB point, and in an appilication where it's technically exceeded you are far better off with pro drivers.

[dalbert02]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

Thank you for that tip, I had not thought of that and it is certainly good advice. I already cut the wood but I will certainly test them out before spending much time finishing them. In my experience, the 'finishing' can take longer than the actual building. If I start to hear cone breakup, I'll build smaller cabs, probably mimicking the M410's dimensions. Thanks again, you may have saved me several hours of work!

[Paul O]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

FYI.. The Pro version of WinISD will model cone excursion so you can see the effects of box size and tuning frequency on it.

[Brian Steele]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

Thank you for that tip, I had not thought of that and it is certainly good advice. I already cut the wood but I will certainly test them out before spending much time finishing them. In my experience, the 'finishing' can take longer than the actual building. If I start to hear cone breakup, I'll build smaller cabs, probably mimicking the M410's dimensions. Thanks again, you may have saved me several hours of work!

My spreadsheet suggests that your choice of box size and tuning will allow the JBL 127H-3 to handle at least 80W in its passband before hitting Xmax. That isn't too bad, considering that it should be producing 110 dB at that point.

[zhillsguy]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

This is one of those cases of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should". In the larger lower tuned box you will run into excursion limits faster. In professional use, it's a recipe for blown drivers. But if what you're building is really an oversize stereo system and you don't get stupid with the bass boost and sustained clipping, the speakers won't really be in much danger. Almost NO home system can handle full power down to its -3dB point, and in an appilication where it's technically exceeded you are far better off with pro drivers.

I would just like to add....if you are setting up the system in the open with no boundaries, perceived bass will be much less than against a boundary, even with a great sub. If you have a boundary or better yet an available corner boundary, use it to your advantage. I'm not sure how a "makeshift" boundary might help, such as a full sheet of plywood (or car?) behind the sub(s), but want to experiment next time I take mine outside. When using a boundary, keep the sub(s) close to it and the mains a few feet away to avoid 1/4 wave cancellation, see this web page. I made a quick spreadsheet for reference, see attached.

If you have $400-$500 budget, I would build a design of choice from diysoundgroup.com, or one of the econowaves on this forum. That way they could be used dual purpose for inside and sound great....but you may already be past the point of no return with this build.

All suggestions made here are good. Good luck with the build and keep us posted. I hope you take a step up from "audio weeny" to "Audio Guru" at the next block party......

[dalbert02]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

Ok, I officially hate all of you. Someone suggested 'econowave' speakers and now I have spent the last several days reading up on them. I learned my 2412 compression driver is not all that great and I would be better off with a polyimide driver. Any thoughts on the PRV D290py ($68/ea) or is best to save up for a B&C polyimide driver ($100-$130/ea)? I could not find many thoughts on PRV in general and just know they are some of the JBL Selenium engineers and execs from Brazil that started a new company.

http://www.parts-express.com/prv-audio-d290py-b-1-polyimide-horn-compression-driver-8-ohm-2-3-bolt--294-2833

Then I started thinking about the box being a little too big because of the post about hitting xmax too soon with my wee 10" driver. So build a smaller box or put in a more substantial driver? On the cheap the Eminence Beta 12A looks good, in the mid to high range KappaLite 12HO, 12LF, Definimax 4012HO all also look good and then I started thinking if a 12" fits could a 15"? Yes, the KappaLite 3015 models well in my 2.4 cu ft box. I have read arguments for and against moving up to a 15-incher.

So, before I spend any money, any suggestions?

And I have yet to get into the crossover...

Thanks,

-dave


PIC of the cabinets so far. Black silicone used for sealing the inside edges.

[Brian Steele]

Re: Need recommendation for outdoor block party speakers - build or buy?

Honestly, as you've already started to build the boxes, I suggest not worrying about it too much at this point. 80W power-handling in the pass-band really isn't that bad. Don't get caught up in "analysis paralysis" . Every DIY speaker project is a learning experience to make your next DIY speaker project better .

What's more important IMO at this point is if your new DIY speakers do not meet your requirements and/or don't perform well, you are able to quantify its deficiencies so if you have to modify and/or rebuild them, you'll have a pretty good idea of specifically where you have to focus your attention.

BTW - what are the internal dimensions of those boxes you've built?