Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

[Blenton]

*** Updated below... WITH PICS!!! ***

What are the main advantages and disadvantages of using pro audio drivers vs home audio drivers for PA speakers?

To make the story short, my wife's little brother is in high school and doesn't know a thing about audio equipment (he thinks his little iPod cube speaker sounds fine ); he picked up a small gig pushing the play button at a few church youth dances, using equipment provided by a friend. He is thinking of getting his own gear and picking up a few gigs to make some money. Nothing major, though, so a 10k watt, 115db at 150ft system isn't what he's looking for. Venues would be a small gymnasium (no bleachers or upper deck, 20 foot vaulted ceiling, just 7 ft on each side of the court) or smaller.

He asked me about helping him build a set of speakers, so I went to my stockpile of buyout drivers but soon realized that they would probably have some serious shortcomings as PA speakers.

After doing some digging, here are some the main reasons I've found for using pro audio drivers as opposed to home audio drivers for PA speakers:

Pro Audio drivers generally
- handle their rated thermal power for longer periods of time
- are more forgiving to EQ'ing
- provide better sound dispersion vs superb imagine from a single seat
- don't sound as good or clean to comparable home audio drivers at the same pricepoint
- require larger enclosures
- don't play as low, but have more 'oomph' and impact above 40 hz
- play cleaner at loud volumes
- are more efficient

I'm new to PA speakers, so I cringe at the thought of using a single horn tweeter with a 15" woofer that plays upwards of 3khz. But I've got to get in a different mindset than if I were building another pair of bookshelf speakers of home theater speakers. I'm looking to make this a fun project for my bro-in-law at a reasonable price.

My initial thoughts are leaning towards a pair of mid/tweets, maybe an 8 or 10" woofer and a horn tweeter in each, and a separate bass bin housing a 15" woofer or pair or 12's (don't think there's room in the budget of an 18"). Though, I could easily be persuaded to something like a 12" or 15" woofer paired with a 5" mid and horn tweeter for each speaker and forego building a separate bass bin. Am I on the right track?

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

What are the main advantages and disadvantages of using pro audio drivers vs home audio drivers for PA speakers?

Pro audio drivers are made for the job, home audio drivers aren't, it's as simple as that. Pro audio speakers are intended to be used in rooms far larger than any home, so they run on average with 10dB higher sensitivity than home audio.

I'm new to PA speakers, so I cringe at the thought of using a single horn tweeter with a 15" woofer that plays upwards of 3khz.

That's typical of cheap PA, not good PA.

My initial thoughts are leaning towards a pair of mid/tweets, maybe an 8 or 10" woofer and a horn tweeter in each, and a separate bass bin housing a 15" woofer or pair or 12's (don't think there's room in the budget of an 18"). Though, I could easily be persuaded to something like a 12" or 15" woofer paired with a 5" mid and horn tweeter for each speaker and forego building a separate bass bin. Am I on the right track?

Don't try to reinvent the wheel. There are many tested and tried designs available, so if you don't have the expertise to design your own take advantage of designs already created by those who do. Whatever you do don't cheap out on the drivers. If you buy $30 drivers they'll sound like $30 drivers.

[Paul O]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

I'm new to PA speakers, so I cringe at the thought of using a single horn tweeter with a 15" woofer that plays upwards of 3khz.

I can't blame you there I would never think of pushing a 15 that high either.

But I've got to get in a different mindset than if I were building another pair of bookshelf speakers of home theater speakers.

No.. you just got to forget about using the cheapest compression driver you can find, spend a little more here and less somewhere else and it will pay big dividends.

My initial thoughts are leaning towards a pair of mid/tweets, maybe an 8 or 10" woofer and a horn tweeter in each, and a separate bass bin housing a 15" woofer or pair or 12's (don't think there's room in the budget of an 18"). Though, I could easily be persuaded to something like a 12" or 15" woofer paired with a 5" mid and horn tweeter for each speaker and forego building a separate bass bin. Am I on the right track?

No a "fullrange" speaker cabinet will never produce the same thump as a sub/sat system, once the box is raised 6 feet off the ground to project overhead you lose 6dB or more at the lowest octaves. The first lesson you will learn is that a speaker that sounds rediculously loud in a livingroom sounds totally pathetic 50-75ft back in a gym. To combat that start with the most efficient drivers you can find and build a dual 10+1 or single 12+1 mid/high box that is either sealed or ported and tuned to ~80hz because sub 100hz response is the responsibility of the subwoofer/s so don't waste any resources trying to make them go lower. Choose dedicated bass/mid drivers for these boxes not anything classified as a subwoofer, and as already mentioned chose a more robust compression driver like the Selenium D220 and pair it with a horn that will load it properly down to a 1.6khz crossover. Then decide what style of sub box you're going to build, if it's gonna be a reflex make it an 18" or 21" but if you can handle building something more complex you could get by with a 12 or 15" in a horn sub of some type, but be aware to get the type of lowend kids are into now with all this DubStep and various electronic music you're gonna need a very large horn. If you can only justify 1 sub at this point I suggest the Pyle PDW21250 in a standard reflex box, I have seen a youtube video of this driver being driven to distruction and it took a surprising amount of power before it let go.

[winslow]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

For a PA system, an 8 or a 10 is a midrange...home guys are using 5s and 6s for "sub"woofers.

[Melby Audio]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

From the PA speakers I have built and modded, this has been by far my favorite compression driver:

http://www.parts-express.com/selenium-d220ti-1-titanium-horn-driver-8-ohm-1-3-8-18--264-270

For dances I think you want a sub. I have been hoping to try this one out in future bulids:

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa385s-8-15-pro-subwoofer-4-vc-8-ohm--295-040

Plays low for a pro driver without requiring an obscenely large enclosure.

For you mid, I would probably look somewhere between an 8" and 12" if you are going with subs, and a 15 if you are going without.

Regarding dispersion, generally pro speakers are selected to provide good dispersion over your audience and only your audience. You want to minimize sound directed at the ceiling, walls, and other objects that are going to create unwanted reflections.

[zhillsguy]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

For dances I think you want a sub. I have been hoping to try this one out in future bulids:

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa385s-8-15-pro-subwoofer-4-vc-8-ohm--295-040

I second that emotion.

[jont]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

The markup on PA gear is not as extreme as hifi gear either (IMO) and it is nearly impossible to build something for less than you can find on craigslist. Used Yamaha clubs often go for less than $300 a pair.

[winslow]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

That's true...but then you might have to worry about how they were treated in their working days, some might have had the snot beat out of them and some might not have been.

[mikejennens]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

What's the budget?
Mike

[Blenton]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

Thanks for all the replies!

There are many tested and tried designs available, so if you don't have the expertise to design your own take advantage of designs already created by those who do.

I've got a Behringer ECM8000 mic with a mixer and SoundEasy, as well as a DATS system. I've measured, designed, and built several HT and home audio systems, so I'm not worried about starting a new project. And, fortunately for you guys, I'm not just drop in on the forum as a total newbie

Originally, I was just hoping to verify the differences between the actual drivers and justify getting one over the other. But it appears that I'm really asking about differences in design philosophies and considerations that I may overlook. Like this:

once the box is raised 6 feet off the ground to project overhead you lose 6dB or more at the lowest octaves.

which should be obvious, but sometimes I get tunnel vision while focusing on a certain aspect of a build (like SPL) and forget the small things. You guys have already started to point those things out, which I much appreciate! I guess this is kind of like asking the HT guys which is better: small speakers and big sub or big speakers and small(er) sub :D...

@PaulO - I appreciate the simplified, but detailed suggestions.

if you can handle building something more complex you could get by with a 12 or 15" in a horn sub of some type

I was actually thinking the same thing. I have yet to build a horn, but I've seen a few well documented examples and would love to build one. I'm a woodworker by trade, so putting the box together is one of the easier parts

For you mid, I would probably look somewhere between an 8" and 12" if you are going with subs, and a 15 if you are going without.

This is the debate I've been having - sub or no sub. The reason being, above all else, cost. I would much prefer smaller mains and a bigger sub as I feel it is a far superior setup in most venues for many reasons (physics being one of them... ).

What's the budget?

TBD, but 'less-expensive' is best as I don't really know how serious this kid is about getting gigs. One of those 'I'd love to help out and it could be a lot of fun for us, but I hope he sticks to it' situations. I'd love to use the drivers suggested above but I think, for now, they may be a bit over budget, except maybe the horn tweeter. I was thinking of something along the lines of using these drivers...

For the mains:

Woofer: 8 or 10" PRV 10W600 , Dayton PA255, or Eminence Alpha8a
Tweeter: Eminence APT-200 or Selenium DT150 (or maybe the selenium mentioned above

For the bass bin:

2x12 PRV 12w700's for <30hz F3 in less than 16 ft^3 (24x24x48 ID box)
1x15 or 2x15 Peavey Pro 15
1x15 or 2x15 PRV Audio 15W700

I'd love to do a 1x15 or 2x15 bass bin, but I think the tradeoff to get sub-40 hz tuning would be a much larger box. However, that brings up another question: how much room gain do you usually get in a gymnasium below 40 hz? Is it worth it to tune lower, as with the 2x12 system above? I know this isn't HT so my source material will be different, but I like to have that extra half-octave from 30 t0 40 hz. But is it worth it in this application?

Yes, I know I'm picking drivers that are only a tier above bargain-basement. If I were to compare these to some home audio drivers, I would say that I'm looking for drivers with a cost to benefit ratio that would compare to things like the venerable Silver Flute woofers and Dayton Silkie tweeters - not the best, but certainly good drivers. Great drivers when you consider their value.

[Paul O]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

how much room gain do you usually get in a gymnasium below 40 hz?

With a compact single sub system like this.. NONE, hence the suggestion for the 21" reflex or a horn to move as much air as as possible.

Is it worth it to tune lower, as with the 2x12 system above? I know this isn't HT so my source material will be different, but I like to have that extra half-octave from 30 t0 40 hz. But is it worth it in this application?

That last half octave can be very expensive and difficult to achieve on a budget, meaningful output in a room the size of a gymnasium requires a ton of air displacement, two 1000w 18" subs produce decent bass but no perceptabe subbass, you start to get some punch with four 18's but ideally you want 4 double 18s. Yeah.

[Blenton]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

it is nearly impossible to build something for less than you can find on craigslist. Used Yamaha clubs often go for less than $300 a pair.

That's what I was thinking at first... but then I thought...

...you might have to worry about how they were treated in their working days, some might have had the snot beat out of them and some might not have been.

RE: room gain -

With a compact single sub system like this.. NONE

That's what I thought... :(

That last half octave can be very expensive and difficult to achieve on a budget, meaningful output in a room the size of a gymnasium requires a ton of air displacement

Hmmm.... maybe I'll shoot for 40hz and up, as I wondered if that might be the case.

[wg_ski]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

two 1000w 18" subs produce decent bass but no perceptabe subbass, you start to get some punch with four 18's but ideally you want 4 double 18s. Yeah.

Four TH18's is what it takes to get bass in a gymnasium. Of course each is the size of a double 18, but only requires a kilowatt not two. They go a bit below 40, but not much. The new Dayton 18" RCF clones should work in those boxes. Getting below 40 requires a larger box. There are a few 30-ish Hz TH design around a single 12" out there but the output is significantly lower and you'd be better off with a 40 Hz box. DIY DJs seem to graviatate more toward THs because they "require less EQ" but there are advantages to both THs and normal front loaded horns. In general, the recommendation of using horns is simple - the decibel per dollar ratio is just plain higher than anythig else unless the driving force is to make it small. Then you have to bump up the wattage to get the same SPL.

If you really need bargain basement subs, the SS15 with a Kappa 15LF (the cheaper stamped frame driver) is hard to beat. It's only a 45 Hz box, but it's relatively small, cheap to build, and will stomp any cheap powered sub. The cheap Dayton 15 will work in it too, but its output will be lower (the 50 Hz peak is less). In either case, keep it under 500 watts a box and don't expect miracles.

[PE1980]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

If you really need bargain basement subs, the SS15 with a Kappa 15LF (the cheaper stamped frame driver) is hard to beat. It's only a 45 Hz box, but it's relatively small, cheap to build, and will stomp any cheap powered sub. The cheap Dayton 15 will work in it too, but its output will be lower (the 50 Hz peak is less). In either case, keep it under 500 watts a box and don't expect miracles.

For the SS15 with the Dayton 15, which Dayton 15 are you talking about:

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa380-8-15-pro-woofer--295-034

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa385s-8-15-pro-subwoofer-4-vc-8-ohm--295-040

[Paul O]

Re: Pro Audio vs home audio drivers?

For the SS15 with the Dayton 15, which Dayton 15 are you talking about:

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa380-8-15-pro-woofer--295-034

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...8-ohm--295-040

He likely meant the PA380 since it's truely cheap(inexpensive) and is similar to the Kappa in spec, but if you can afford the PA385 that is the one to use because when it comes to subs xmax is king.