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A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

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  • A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

    Greeting everyone,

    Recently I have taken up a project of refurbishing some PA speakers that I built about 15 years ago. Namely, I want to customize the crossover as I was never really happy with the frequency response. The cabs are 2-way with a 15" woofer and 1" exit compression driver on a CD horn. Both components are Carvin brand.

    As I investigated and measured the drivers I found that one compression driver appears to be damaged. It is still making sound, but the impedance curve does not match the other driver/horn and does not look like that of a healthly driver.

    I've done some research and I'm 90% sure that the driver is a rebadged Eminence PSD:2002 or at least it is diaphragm compatible. As I look at the specs of this driver, I see that the recommended minimum crossover frequency is 1.6k @ 18 db/oct. Ideally, I would like to cross the drivers over lower than that since I'm pairing them with 15" woofers and I'd like to avoid major off-axis anomalies.

    So I'm thinking that with the price of the diaphragms being what they are, I might as well investigate just buying new compression drivers that are more compatible with my application.

    The thing is, though, the cabs are built around a 1" threaded horn that would be difficult to replace with, say, a 2" exit model. The horn is surrounded by wood that supports the grill. I have not been able to find a same size / smaller horn for this dimension. FYI the outer dimensions of the mouth are 16.5" x 6". Furthermore, I am happy with the pattern control of the existing horn.

    So now I'm looking for suggestions or experiences with 1" throat drivers that can play low to match the woofer. The application is low/medium level DJ use and medium level PA and stage monitor use. The existing crossover is on a PCB that I would like to reuse and provides for a 12db/oct topology on HP. However, it would probably not be too much trouble to fit another shunt capacitor somewhere to up it to 18db/oct.

    Two candidates from PE stand out as contenders to me:

    PRV Audio D280Ti-S with a minimum crossover of 1.2k @ 12db/oct , or

    Dayton Audio DT250P-8 with a minimum frequency of 1.4k @ 12db/oct

    I am interested in hearing any suggestions, and I thank you for your response!

    Regards,
    Dan

  • #2
    Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

    Selenium D-220. Currently out of stock, but worth waiting for.

    http://www.parts-express.com/seleniu...-8-18--264-270

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

      BMS 4550 or 4552ND.
      www.billfitzmaurice.com
      www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

        Originally posted by jefffluker View Post
        Selenium D-220. Currently out of stock, but worth waiting for.

        http://www.parts-express.com/seleniu...-8-18--264-270
        Well, I've used that driver before on a different project, but I don't think its robust enough for what I want to do.

        Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
        BMS 4550 or 4552ND.
        The 4550 looks promising though its a little more than I wanted to spend but I can be flexible. One problem is that its a bolt-on driver. Do you have any experience with bolt-on to threaded adapters?

        Do you not think that the two drivers I posted are up to the task?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

          Originally posted by Eigenmind View Post
          Do you not think that the two drivers I posted are up to the task?
          That depends on your off-axis response needs. The dispersion pattern of a direct radiating fifteen inch driver starts shrinking around 1kHz.
          www.billfitzmaurice.com
          www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

            How about a phenolic midrange driver, like the Selenium D250-X? It's a screw-on 1" driver; PRV has something similar. The top end could be supplemented with an arrangement of piezo drivers.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

              Originally posted by Cuppa Joe View Post
              How about a phenolic midrange driver, like the Selenium D250-X? It's a screw-on 1" driver; PRV has something similar. The top end could be supplemented with an arrangement of piezo drivers.
              That's an interesting suggestion, but unfortunately the layout of the cabinets is set. I'm pretty sure I'm sold on the BMS drivers, but they are a little more money than I was thinking so I'm going to wait a bit and save up to buy a pair of 4550's. I'll post here again when that happens!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

                Note:

                You can't just arbitrarily load the CD lower than the design. The crossover will be wrong, the horn won't load that low, and you'll wind up with worse results by "upgrading". Now, if you're willing to do a full-on upgrade, that's a different story, but it doesn't sound like you're prepared to make the sort of wholesale changes that a compression driver upgrade would necessitate.

                GIVEN THAT.

                JBL 2426 can be had used pretty inexpensively, is screw-on, and very capable of high output. Only problem is a (well damped) top octave, which can either lead to too little top or heavy EQ and harsh top octave sound. The BMS 4550 looks like a really nice option. Buy nice or buy twice, $150/unit isn't much for a unit you'll hopefully use for years.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

                  Well I bought the BMS drivers and finally got around to testing them this weekend. I attached the on axis response of the drivers in the cabinet. Ignore the absolute SPL numbers. I will post some directivity plots shortly.

                  Originally posted by badman View Post
                  Note:

                  You can't just arbitrarily load the CD lower than the design. The crossover will be wrong, the horn won't load that low, and you'll wind up with worse results by "upgrading". Now, if you're willing to do a full-on upgrade, that's a different story, but it doesn't sound like you're prepared to make the sort of wholesale changes that a compression driver upgrade would necessitate.
                  I am designing a bespoke crossover for this system. I'm thinking about crossing over at 1kHz. I don't have flare rate data for the horn or anything, but the mouth is roughly 14.5" x 4" and I'm fairly confident that the cutoff frequency is somewhere around 800Hz-1kHz based on similar horns I have looked at.
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

                    Here is the woofer and compression driver response at 0, 15, and 30 deg.
                    Attached Files

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                    • #11
                      Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

                      And here is the HF contour plot.

                      Normalized to 0 deg!
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

                        And here is a glimpse of the response with a crossover that I am working on. With fancy inverted polarity trace!

                        Comments welcome!
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

                          Here is the circuit as it stands right now. HF is 3rd order electrical; I could basically meet the target curve with a 2nd order section, but the phase tracking at crossover is not as good. So the extra cap achieves some shaping and adds some beneficial phase shift. C5 bypasses the upper leg of the L-pad at high frequencies to lift the response and compensate for the CD horn.

                          LF section uses C4 to form a trap that attenuates the woofer breakup. R3 limits the depth, but is there because the impedance of the LF section plunges at HF without it.

                          So here is a question, what is a good compromise between notching out the breakup and low system impedance at HF? How important is HF impedance anyway? I know that there is much less musical energy up there. Am I barking up the wrong tree here?

                          Looking for input positive or negative here so I can move on to implementation with some confidence. Thanks!
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

                            Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                            BMS 4550 or 4552ND.
                            Bill, I have utilized the 4550. I would love to get some feedback on my design!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: A 1" compression driver that can play low / mate with a 15" ?

                              I take it you're worried about the 5 ohm at 20k (and falling for a short while above)? A small series inductor on the tweeter might be helpful, both to suppress the 20k peak and to boost that HF impedance slightly, some amps don't like low impedance at HF because it can mess with feedback or modulation loops if the design isn't solid. (the inductor will require some re-tuning of the other components, most likely) I also might do some additional shaping to suppress that 6k bump- I suspect this design will sound pretty hot if it's left in.

                              Nice job working with what you've got there.
                              Last edited by badman; 10-22-2015, 01:21 PM. Reason: one more thing...

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