Small Sub For Live Use

[tomdaugherty]

I'm in a five piece band playing country rock. We are not a loud band usually around 97-100 db. The drummer wants to start micing his kick drum. We are going to use a kick sub mic that I have already built. I was wondering if I could build 1 or 2 single 12" cabinets like the Green Boy Sub 12 to use as subs for this kind of situation.

Oh, the mains are BF Jack 10's and I looked at some of Bill Fitzmaurice designs and they look to be too big.

Tedward

[Sydney]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

too big..

Define too big and what is the absolute size limit.

...We are not a loud band usually around 97-100 db. ...

This sorta surprises me in that everyone I know is scaling down the stage volume and using smaller amps/cabs. The FOH system is given a stage feed. Muscles in the ear start to protect the hearing @ 87db.

[tomdaugherty]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

We looked at some subs that were 36" cubed and were too big. At the moment all the gear will fit in the back of a full sized pickup. I have a Green Boy 12/6 for my bass cabinet and love the sound. The Green Boy 12's are a perfect size for our needs. It's not like we are trying to hit 20hz at 120db, just give the kick drum some bottom end.

Tedward

[Sydney]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

Guess on the internal volume of the Green Boy 12?

FWIW: Cubes conserve space but the form factor is awkward to tote/pack.

[tomdaugherty]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

Three cubic feet give or take.

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

Oh, the mains are BF Jack 10's and I looked at some of Bill Fitzmaurice designs and they look to be too big.

T24s are too big? By your description a pair of those would be sufficient, in a 16 inch width loaded with Kappa Pro 10LF or Kappalite 3010LF drivers. T39s would be even better, and don't have more of a footprint, they're just taller. A pair of direct radiating twelves in 3 cuft cabs probably won't keep up with your J10s.

[Sydney]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

Three cubic feet give or take.

http://www.parts-express.com/celestion-ftr18-4080f-18-professional-cast-frame-speaker-600w--294-2012

[tomdaugherty]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

I must have missed the T24, Looks like they will work. Thanks Bill.

Thanks for your input Sydney but, I think an 18" will be too big.

Tedward

[Sydney]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

but, I think an 18" will be too big

PE has already done a BassBox simulation on that driver ( woofer Selection Guide ) and it came up with a 3 cu ft model.

I must have missed the T24, Looks like they will work

BTW: I've have a T24 ( w a 10" ) since 2006 and it definitely won't replace an 18" ;)

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

I must have missed the T24, Looks like they will work. Thanks Bill.

Just be sure to go with the Kappa Pro 10LF or Kappalite 3010LF for maximum output from minimum size. The BP102 is OK for those with lots of pack space, using at least four single driver cabs or two dual loaded cabs.

[Brian Steele]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

I'm in a five piece band playing country rock. We are not a loud band usually around 97-100 db. The drummer wants to start micing his kick drum. We are going to use a kick sub mic that I have already built. I was wondering if I could build 1 or 2 single 12" cabinets like the Green Boy Sub 12 to use as subs for this kind of situation.

Interesting challenge. Many options available for consideration. For example, two of PE's PA310s in a 5 cu.ft. cabinet tuned to 50 Hz will be around 100dB/2.83V @ 100 Hz down to 50 Hz. You should also get over 120dB peak output in the passband. You can also "detune" the cabinet by using longer vents to tune the cabinet to 42 Hz instead. A bit of active EQ (3dB @42 Hz Q=0.7) will flatten the passband.

[Sydney]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

Tedward: Hope you are not offended by this, but considering you already @ 97 -100 db - the sound guys who have to provide FOH support have my empathy. I don't know of any old musician that doesn't regret playing too loud in the their past.
Historically the electric guitar was developed to be heard above the other acoustic instruments ( including horns and drums ). The 60's saw the development of large powerful stage amps. The PA struggled just providing vocal support.
Large amps ( like the DC300 ) allowed the FOH to push vocals and eventually instruments ( via miking & D/I ). And include stage monitors. The result was the Stage volume got louder than the drum ( this scenario ). This increase in noise floor, lack of isolation and stage mung make it near impossible to provide a clear FOH support. IEM's can help, or a drum cage.
At 100' at a fair I've seen the reading of low to mid 90's SPL for a Rock/Country band and a few felt it was too loud.
Anyway...
A kick drum "punch" is roughly 60 - 80Hz , so extended response is not needed, as a matter of fact it would increase Stage mud. This isn't home/auto subwoofer application, it's a drum monitor.
Most mix boards include a select-able filter to dump below 100Hz ( to reduce LF noise into channels running vocal mics ). And if you have the capability, perhaps a board Aux feed specifically for this monitor.

[Brian Steele]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

A kick drum "punch" is roughly 60 - 80Hz , so extended response is not needed, as a matter of fact it would increase Stage mud. This isn't home/auto subwoofer application, it's a drum monitor.

Good info to know. What's defined as a "subwoofer" tends to vary based on the requirement that needs to be filled .

[Sydney]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

Well I didn't want to come off as the old poot screaming "too loud". I do think dropping volume and deep bass on stage is a win win win etc.
Another trick of psycho-acoustics is to shelve up the response from 80 - 100Hz.
Tedward didn't mention the size/type of gigs he did. ( small clubs, large stage, outdoors etc )

[Brian Steele]

Re: Small Sub For Live Use

Another trick of psycho-acoustics is to shelve up the response from 80 - 100Hz.

..which basically describes the response of Bill's T24, so it sounds like the T24 is a good match.