Sunflower center build begins - and some questions

[Evan Steeves]

Since I've never worked with and don't remember even seeing in person the non backed veneer...I believe that both sides of the non backed would look the same. The backed veneer will look like wood on one side and have a paper/cardboard look on the other. Here's a pic for an example, notice the grain pattern on one side and the paper on the other.

ok thanks, will inspect my veneer when I get back home. I don't seem to see any retail stores here in Canada that carry the Heat Lock glue, will have to keep looking.

[Jeff F.]

Since I've never worked with and don't remember even seeing in person the non backed veneer...I believe that both sides of the non backed would look the same. The backed veneer will look like wood on one side and have a paper/cardboard look on the other. Here's a pic for an example, notice the grain pattern on one side and the paper on the other.

[Evan Steeves]

Subtracting the volume of the amp from the enclosure is the correct way to keep the designs spec. I have never used the titebond glue for veneer. I have only used Heat Lock. Its more expensive but I like that its designed for use with veneer and basically idiot proof...important for me. I've only used it with paper backed veneer and have had no problems, I really like using it.

stupid question, but as I have never worked with Veneer, and it is not marked anywhere on the packaging of veneer I bought...how do I know if it is raw or paper-backed veneer? just by looking at the back end? Is the paper evident?

[rvsixer]

On the subs, I choose to keep the box volume the same, and just add a bunch of internal bracing to make up for amp volume.

Whether two subs or four, they are best arranged based on acoustic measurements/best sound not fixed pre-defined locations (or WAF lol). That said, two subs will need work in locating for best sound, four should be much more forgiving of placement.

[Jeff F.]

Subtracting the volume of the amp from the enclosure is the correct way to keep the designs spec. I have never used the titebond glue for veneer. I have only used Heat Lock. Its more expensive but I like that its designed for use with veneer and basically idiot proof...important for me. I've only used it with paper backed veneer and have had no problems, I really like using it.

[Evan Steeves]

Some great input rvsixer! Thabks again. I actually searched that error on google for YPAO and many said it's a common error and not a big deal, usually it is obvious when one is out of phase (something wouldnt wound right) but my system seems real clean.

I looked up the turtle subs yesterday and I think I am sold on building two of them right off the bat! I'll probably copy you with the amp as well since it would have just the right amont to feed both of them. Also, it is available to me locally at Solen, as well as the subs. I think maybe ill start with two then eventually I can go with four (one in each corner :p) I also read that with two, you can hit around 109dB of bass which would be plenty for me.

Jeff, thanks for the link! Any changes to the box considering I won't be installing a plate amp? Maybe just subtract the internal volume taken by the amp by making the box shorter.

Now I have to start thinking about finishing on both my amigas as well as my sunflower center. I bought one box of walnut veneer and was going to use titebond II and the iron-on method this spring. Although I have read some stories of people having difficulty. Would like it to be simplest method as this is my first time veneering.

[Jeff F.]

What are Paul's turtle subs?

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/40208-whole-buncha-sub-designs-for-the-rss210hf-4

[rvsixer]

Search for "paul turtle pony burro" here in the forum. Just from experience, its a lot less hassle to just start with two or more off the bat usually unless you have a "perfect" room for bass reproduction and sit only in one fixed seat (google can offer up why).

Welcome to YPAO. I too had that same error on one of my subs, not too mention setting my big mains as small LOL. The meter looks fine to me.

Remember my suggestions are just mine, from my own experience starting my DIY and HT journey ten years ago. There are other ways to do it, have fun!

[Evan Steeves]

The Radio Shack meter in the linked article works fine. PE sells mics for your cell phone, though I have never used one or know how accurate they are, that could be a less expensive possibility.

On subs I go against the grain, and run them passive to avoid plate amps. I like to have all my equipment plugged into the same power strip, no chance of ground hum/buzz issues. Also with plate amps you have to run an AC cord and an RCA wire out to each sub. Going passive, you just need to run a speaker wire to each sub.

I have a couple of Paul's "Turtle" subs, powered by a PE APA150 amp, great sounding setup. Now...sub placement is a whole other topic LOL . Oh, and rooms have gain just like cabins.

Good info once again! What are Paul's turtle subs? I didn't see them on his site. I would rather start with one sub then later on (when I get a bigger place) add a second sub.


So after work yesterday, since I didn't have to drive downtown to school for once, I was able to go home and do the YPAO calibration to see what it would give. The final result was that it set center channel to -3.5 dB (I believe it was -1.0 dB before), vs. the Amiga towers which are at 0 dB. I then put Mad Max: Fury road on again and all I can say is WOW, what a difference! much better this way, all frequencies coming through equal now and voices are still clear. Of course I will buy a dB meter and test as you suggested, but at least it is better than it was.

One weird thing though, the YPAO had a 'W-1: Out of phase' warning after it finished calibration...is this accurate or can it sometimes detect a faulty out-of-phase woofer? I was very careful to ensure all woofers were in phase when I installed into the center channel...could it be the whole center channel out of phase? sounded real good to me after the calibration.

I saw this meter on Amazon.ca that seems to have great reviews and is very well priced...thought?

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B01JCEDTDO/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A11GINK95FPNDJ&psc=1

thank you for your input and for following my thread. It has been a great learning experience for me, shifting from car audio to home audio, and I will only get better!!! After I finish my first 5.1 system, my next challenge will be...CROSSOVER DESIGN!

[rvsixer]

The Radio Shack meter in the linked article works fine. PE sells mics for your cell phone, though I have never used one or know how accurate they are, that could be a less expensive possibility.

On subs I go against the grain, and run them passive to avoid plate amps. I like to have all my equipment plugged into the same power strip, no chance of ground hum/buzz issues. Also with plate amps you have to run an AC cord and an RCA wire out to each sub. Going passive, you just need to run a speaker wire to each sub.

I have a couple of Paul's "Turtle" subs, powered by a PE APA150 amp, great sounding setup. Now...sub placement is a whole other topic LOL . Oh, and rooms have gain just like cabins.

[Evan Steeves]

THAT LOOKS AWESOME...great job. How do they match tonally?

Setup looks as good as its going to get to me, all three speakers on the same plane. I wouldn't move the center down onto the shelf, the actors are already talking from their hips, if you move it down they will be talking from their knees lol.

Sounds like you have mismatched output levels. I've personally found automated speaker setup algorithms lacking (including my current Yamaha YPAO which sets things very poorly). Manual setup is easy and works great, get all levels matched and then trim channels to taste (and yes you need the meter, by ear does not work well you will chase your tail trying to get it to sound "right" ask me how I know):
http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-...match-speakers

Also, I have found 90% of the front stage seems to be mixed to the center channel, with the LR very low volume most of the time so don't worry about that. As long as everything has been level matched correctly, the LR will come alive when the producers wanted them to.

EDIT:
I just read about the center not having as much impact down low as the mains. The center won't go down near as low as the mains will, and if most of the action is coming from the center yes you will miss out. Solution is subs.

excellent information, thank you! I will keep this setup then, and start looking for a decent SPL-meter. I believe my local Addison electronic should carry some sort of model, if not I'll look to order one off Amazon. Any brands you suggest?

Tonally...well, I am no expert since I have rarely had chances to hear GOOD, or GREAT systems, however when I played 'Mad Max: Fury road' 4K blu-ray, and the sound at the beginning (his dead daughter and wife's haunting voices whispering from left to right side of the soundstage), I could not differentiate the speaker locations, and it sounded REALLY cool (if that makes much sense -sorry for not being more technical!)

I agree that the main problem is level matching as well, and I think the YPAO would already help when I get around to it, even though it won't be perfect. I simply plugged the center in last night and set it to small and then listened to some movies, so no real setup done, it's no wonder the level matching was off!

As for the sub, this is actually my next investment. I am actually more familiar with sub and enclosure building than anything else, as I come from the car audio workd and have been building subs and enclosures for many years now. However, when it comes to home audio, due to increased efficiency vs a car (no cabin gain, or tin can effect to deal with), I really can't decide which model/build would fit well with my system, and for my needs. I also am not sure what to do in terms of amping..do I go with an external/rack mount amp, or do I take chances with a plate amp? I like the convenience of the plate amp but every one I read reviews about, no matter the brand, looks like 50% of people experience failures at least once, or within 2 years of operation, which turns me off.

[rvsixer]

THAT LOOKS AWESOME...great job. How do they match tonally?

Setup looks as good as its going to get to me, all three speakers on the same plane. I wouldn't move the center down onto the shelf, the actors are already talking from their hips, if you move it down they will be talking from their knees lol.

Sounds like you have mismatched output levels. I've personally found automated speaker setup algorithms lacking (including my current Yamaha YPAO which sets things very poorly). Manual setup is easy and works great, get all levels matched and then trim channels to taste (and yes you need the meter, by ear does not work well you will chase your tail trying to get it to sound "right" ask me how I know):
http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-...match-speakers

Also, I have found 90% of the front stage seems to be mixed to the center channel, with the LR very low volume most of the time so don't worry about that. As long as everything has been level matched correctly, the LR will come alive when the producers wanted them to.

EDIT:
I just read about the center not having as much impact down low as the mains. The center won't go down near as low as the mains will, and if most of the action is coming from the center yes you will miss out. Solution is subs.

[Evan Steeves]

aaaan DONE!

Did not have much time for testing yesterday, but the first thing I did notice was that the voices in movies was much louder now.....My GF and I had been complaining about low voices and loud special effects (explosions, etc) for a little while with only the Amigas connected. Here are some more pics of the setup;

















Now, I put the center channel flush with the edge of the glass shelf, to try and minimize wave diffraction, and to bring them as close in line with the towers as possible but towers are still slightly ahead of the CC (I could bring them back but I am worried about some wave diffraction off middle/lower glass shelves that portrude further ahead of top shelf). Is this placement alright or does anyone have alternate suggestions? Wish I could bring my television forward a few inches but the stand is not adjustable forwards or backwards. I suppose I could try putting the CC on the middle rack and slightly angle it upwards as well.

I did not have a chance to do the YPAO calibration on my Yamaha with the microphone, since it was almost midnight and did not want to wake any neighbors. One thing I feel like my Amigas are quieter, and the center channel seems to overpower slightly the Amigas...is this normal? I mean I put on Mad max and the sound was pretty epic, but didn't seem quite as impactful on the lower end as it was before adding the CC. Maybe it's just because the whole system is louder at lower volumes, as compared to before when I'd have to turn volume levels up slightly more to hear the Amigas only. I set the CC to 'small' in the Yamaha.


Any calibration input would be great to get my new 3.0 setup sounding golden :D Oh, and thanks for following my thread!

[Evan Steeves]

Small yet important update:

All I can say is...I freaking LOVE my new router! I had to thin out a small section of the rear panel in order to get my speaker binding posts to work (the thread was only like 5/8'' length, and to have ordered the longer Dayton model was ridiculously espensive so I worked with what I found locally) and I was able to use the small (non-plunge) router attachment to do the job, while holding my vacuum up to it to minimize dust.

I also got to drilling out all speaker screw holes, and glueing the crossover in last night. Tonight, I will place the 4 speakers in (loosely), wirethem up to crossover and test to ensure all work well before glueing the top and back panels on. I also need to source some black screws for the speakers. They seem to be hard to find here at my local Canadian-tire/Home-depot (besides the drywall style, but I may just go with those if no other option)

some pics;

[Evan Steeves]

Please do! Though I love my Sunflower mains, they just take up too much room in my already small listening room, so have been thinking about building something smaller. I've always liked the Amiga's, it wasn't until your thread that I saw I already might have a good center match for them!

Honestly I really like the Amiga's as an all-around, compact yet loud/powerful speaker. I feel like they do many things well. Can't wait to see how the center channel matches up with them!