Candidates for New DIY Build - Floorstanding for Music & HT

[JazzyG]

New Member Intro: I am new here, but not new to audio or forums, I am looking for some additional ideas and suggestions on a new DIY build! I swore I wasn't going to join another forum, I am a member over at HiFi WigWam under the same user name, went there after the old Linn forum went dark. However, the high level of knowledge I am seeing on this forum, and with a more North American focus than the WAM forum that is UK based, persuaded me to give this forum a deeper look.

My DIY Experience & Situation: I built a pair of Paul Carmody's Classix II, modded out a pair of the Linaeum equipped Radio Shack LX5's using Murphy Blaster's crossover + other mods, rebuilt and modded out a Mirage sub, including new foam surrounds, built a new grill from scratch, and added bracing. I have built up interconnects, power cords, speaker cables, soldered crossovers, can dial in systems to rooms using TuneDem & DSP, etc. I have recently taken on woodworking as a hobby, about 1 year serious experience, and I have quite a few good tools at my disposal. I am presently unemployed, due to COVID-19, so lot's of time on my hands. I have a lot of good quality audio equipment and a good ear, been doing this hobby my whole life (50 years), so assume I will be able to hear the difference and appreciate the subtleties. I am looking to replace speakers that I like a lot, PMC Twenty23, front end on this system is a current spec Linn Akurate DSM-Katalyst with a Bryston 4BSST2 amp.

Project Proposal: What I like about the PMC Twenty23 in this system, they are very precise, image well, deep bass, vocals on music and movies are excellent with good articulation. If I build something, what I would want to add is the capability of more power handling and bass, as good and deep as the PMC's are they have their limits, we are talking about a 5-1/2" woofer after all--easy to forget that as they play so deep within reasonable SPL's. Besides, I want to try and build something really special and have FUN doing it! Something that would be on par with a PMC Twenty26, the larger 3-way version of my 23's would be a good design target to meet or exceed as far as performance.

Here is a short list of some kits that currently have my interest.

Curt & Jim's Statement II. Are these up to scratch to replace my PMC's? Can they hang with the more expensive options below?
SEAS CX871 by PBN Audio, I like the looks of this coax driver design.
A.O.S. S42TL or an active design using Hypex amps like the M40. These kind of have a PMC vibe to them, so they attracted me.
Selah Estremo MK2, maybe biting off too much for my 2nd build? Maybe something else in his lineup like the Ceramica. Would be cool to try out the RAAL tweeters!

What else should I be looking at?

Cheers,

JazzyG

[djg]

Meniscusaudio has lots of upmarket component kits. Many from top DIY speaker designers. The site is not big on pictures of finished speakers. Our host doesn't like direct links to competitors.

The Statement family is suited to HT systems, many stereo pairs have no HT system add ons.

[Kornbread]

Not going to need a sub with the Statements. Clean and deep. Khanspires, and there is a guy on here that has been trying to sale a very well built Khanspire enclosure. I've always wanted to be a Wilson fan but confess to having never heard one, still I like the Wilson'esc look of some TrolesGraven designs. They are probably dozens of designs that would fill your needs.

[Wolf]

Huh, funny you have PMC 23's. I just finished my take on a design (design is done, finish to cabs yet to be applied) to 'improve' on the PMC twenty5 design, called the EMP. I used a pair of 5.25" Peerless glass fiber 830991, and the new Seas Titan 27TAC/GB tweeter, and these things are really nice!! It's a small 20 ltr tower about 30" high, 7.5" wide, 10" deep, with dynamic impactful bass into the upper 40Hz range.
I've been listening to it for about 2-3 months now.

I have not yet posted the build here on PE, but it is posted at DIYaudio and MAC-forums.

Welcome to the forums!
Wolf

[donradick]

I would put the Selah Ceramicas floorstanders at the top of the your current list.
If the distance is not too far, Rick will be happy to audition a pair for you if he has them in stock.
For a LOT less money, I like the CSS-Audio Criton 2TD MTM. I built the TM version for a commission, and was floored by the clarity, imaging, and power handling.
My suggestion to you is to go "mid-scale", because in a year or two you will get the "itch" again, and want to build something even better.
You might take a look at the Facebook group "DIY Loudspeaker Pad". Lots of very nice open-source builds there by a couple of people.
That's the way the addiction goes!

[tvrgeek]

I have been a long time Seas fan, but the new SB and CSS drivers have my eye. Several spec designs for them.
If you prefer fake detail and distortion, then go for ribbons. I prefer not.

[Wolf]

You need to read up on that then, because the AC 2560 and Airborne 7502 are low HD, the RAAL is low HD, and the BG and HiVi RT1.3WE are low HD.

It's not "FAKE DETAIL", it's faster and cleaner rise times coupled with lower mass diaphragms. Not all are created equal.
Later,
Wolf

[littlebear]

How about the Viawave GRT 145-4 ribbon?

http://viawave.ru/en/product_145_4

Murf

[JazzyG]

"Meniscusaudio has lots of upmarket component kits. Many from top DIY speaker designers. The site is not big on pictures of finished speakers. Our host doesn't like direct links to competitors."

I got my Classix II kit from the boys down at Meniscus, overall a pretty good experience. Their site seems to be having some technical difficulties at the moment, making it very difficult to sort anything without pulling up error screens. I guess I better remove some of the links from my post, I didn't think about this forum being associated with a commercial site--OOPS!

"Not going to need a sub with the Statements. Clean and deep. Khanspires, and there is a guy on here that has been trying to sale a very well built Khanspire enclosure. I've always wanted to be a Wilson fan but confess to having never heard one, still I like the Wilson'esc look of some TrolesGraven designs. They are probably dozens of designs that would fill your needs.

The Khanspires appear very similar in design philosophy, budget and configuration to the Statements, not sure I see where one is better than the other. At one time, I also wanted to be a Wilson fan, unfortunately when I heard them at a show and again at a dealer showroom, I was left somewhat underwhelmed. I always felt Wilson's were too bright in the treble, don't represent good value, plus my wife thinks they all look like those trash cans you see on the street...I really couldn't argue with her on that point either. I agree, many of Troels Gravesens designs look 'Wilsonesque', they also look very difficult to machine all the MDF into those shapes! I have been giving a long look at a lot of his designs though, starting to hit a point of paralysis by analysis mental state.



"I just finished my take on a design (design is done, finish to cabs yet to be applied) to 'improve' on the PMC twenty5 design, called the EMP. I used a pair of 5.25" Peerless glass fiber 830991, and the new Seas Titan 27TAC/GB tweeter, and these things are really nice!! It's a small 20 ltr tower about 30" high, 7.5" wide, 10" deep, with dynamic impactful bass into the upper 40Hz range."

Sounds like a neat project, similar to what I am trying to accomplish. I just can't figure out quite how PMC milks so much bass out of those tiny drivers and mini-towers!?!? They play to 29Hz, you built a speaker, with double the number of woofers, and it has bass to the upper 40Hz range, what gives? Is your design a transmission line?

"I would put the Selah Ceramicas floorstanders at the top of the your current list. If the distance is not too far, Rick will be happy to audition a pair for you if he has them in stock. For a LOT less money, I like the CSS-Audio Criton 2TD MTM. I built the TM version for a commission, and was floored by the clarity, imaging, and power handling. My suggestion to you is to go "mid-scale", because in a year or two you will get the "itch" again, and want to build something even better. You might take a look at the Facebook group "DIY Loudspeaker Pad". Lots of very nice open-source builds there by a couple of people. That's the way the addiction goes!"

Thanks for your opinion on the Ceramicas, I live out west though so an audition would not be feasible--they look pretty nice though! It looks like there are several models in-between the Ceramicas and the Estremos that I can take a closer loot at too. I checked out CSS, looks like a neat site and designs, not sure they would meet my design goals as far as bass output and such. You may be right about mid-scale, leaves me somewhere to go with it down the road. I won't go on Facebook anymore, can't stand that site, but thanks for the tip!

"I have been a long time Seas fan, but the new SB and CSS drivers have my eye. Several spec designs for them.
If you prefer fake detail and distortion, then go for ribbons. I prefer not"

I guess everything else is fake in our world now, why not have fake detail in our tweeters to listen to our fake news on!?!? I will check out SB Acoustics, see what they have to offer. What did you think of the CX871, it uses Seas drivers? I have thought about building the Loki III before too, probably not right for this room though.

I could always go with something smaller, on a stand, and implement a subwoofer in this room as well. But, that would just complicate my decision even more!!

Thanks for all your posts, appreciate it.

JazzyG

[Wolf]

How about the Viawave GRT 145-4 ribbon?

http://viawave.ru/en/product_145_4

Murf

Another good example!
Wolf

[Wolf]

To answer your query...

That 29Hz spec for the PMC Twenty5 is likely not anechoic F3, and it likely is a larger tolerance. Some manufacturers spec their towers with a -10dB frequency, which is not telling the whole truth.

The PMC Twenty5 design has a 6.5" woofer, and is 40" tall. That 6.5" likely has a low Fs, and therefore maybe lower F3 than my design. I heard them in person at an audio event, and felt the low-end was there, but not enough output at the low end compared to the rest of the range. I chose the 5.25" woofer (and a pair I might add) to have more sensitivity (fewer watts required) over the original, have more Sd (cone area) over the original for more impact, Xmax potential, and power handling; and to get a smaller center to center for drivers and keep the xover low enough to not stretch the image vertically in the TMM arrangement. Beyond that, I was able to get this in a 20 ltr tower with a pair of woofers over the single. The design is likely some form of a TL, but I modeled it as a simple bass reflex or ported design.

I am stating the anechoic F3 for my EMP. If you place this speaker in a room, the extension will improve due to boundary loading. The peak in port output occurs at 36-38 Hz range confirmed by measuring nearfield, and measured impedance tuning is 42Hz. So- I still have output at nominal level down to at least 35Hz in room if not lower. Stating the F3 of 48Hz anechoic is not showing the whole picture.

That said- I feel the EMP extends just as low as the Twenty5 I heard, and will more impact and dynamic potential with a pair of woofers. During orchestral pieces, these get down and thunder without stress. The Firebird Suite sounded awesome through these!

Later,
Wolf

[JazzyG]

Wolf,

Thank you for your detailed response, makes a lot of sense. I vastly prefer it when specs are stated, as you are saying, f3, f10, etc. Yeah, I am sure you are correct, the 29Hz on my 23's are probably the f10. I have done some testing with them, whilst dialing in the DSP, and they do dig deeper than you would think--that they make any meaningful bass below 30Hz is astounding for a 5-1/2" woofer. However, when I put the juice to them, along with the deep bass, it can certainly overwhelm them. Without a bunch of deep bass, those 'lil suckers will flat out crank with a Bryston amp on them! Sounds like the PMCs you listened to were the Twenty5.24, which is a size bigger and a gen newer than mine.

One thing I found out, after actually playing with serious subwoofers, like the JL Audio Fathom series, many rooms are not even capable of handling deep bass at flat levels. Speakers playing bass flat to 20Hz and rolling off well below that will shake, rattle, and roll everything in most living rooms--even the walls! I found I had to roll off the E.L.F. on my subs to get the right balance in my rooms, a true 25Hz at -5db will rock your world at moderately loud listening levels!

My wife is kind of different than most, she is actually encouraging me to build the Estremos...because she knows that is what I really want. Since she is working and I am not...I might go for it since she approves! Since I am not presently working, I was leaning towards the more affordable designs, but what the heck, she is probably right as far as long-term enjoyment and this is a unique time I have to be able to take my time and build something really nice.

I am sending an email to Rick @ Selah Audio and see what he thinks of my project.

Cheers,

JazzyG

[Millstonemike]

Not going to need a sub with the Statements. Clean and deep. Khanspires, and there is a guy on here that has been trying to sale a very well built Khanspire enclosure. I've always wanted to be a Wilson fan but confess to having never heard one, still I like the Wilson'esc look of some TrolesGraven designs. They are probably dozens of designs that would fill your needs.

I ask ... would the statements really stand up to HT? The RS225s are great drivers. But their excursion is uncontrolled below 25 Hz in the Statements alignment. I thought of "HT" as having an infrasonic component that, well, makes it the HT experience. I imagine a quiet scene AND THEN the abrupt explosion, eruption, rocket launch, help me here ... with an infrasonic component that you feel.

Just inquiring to provoke some thoughts on this.

[Kornbread]

I ask ... would the statements really stand up to HT? The RS225s are great drivers. But their excursion is uncontrolled below 25 Hz in the Statements alignment. I thought of "HT" as having an infrasonic component that, well, makes it the HT experience. I imagine a quiet scene AND THEN the abrupt explosion, eruption, rocket launch, help me here ... with an infrasonic component that you feel.

Just inquiring to provoke some thoughts on this.

In my experience, they do HT fine. But you do raise a valid point. My complaint with the rs225 is when they bottom, they complain very loudly and from what I gather, they will not do it many times until permanent damage to the driver occurs. Keep in mind that the spl levels it takes to bottom a quad of rs225 is LOUD. Loud enough my neighbors let me know about it and I live in the country where neighbors are not all that close. Sometimes, when listening to EDM, I get in overkill mood and let the 18" IB subs eat but most of the time they are off and there is no problem reproducing that type of music at more than turn it down levels.
YMMV

[JazzyG]

Kit is ordered!

Let's talk about spikes/outriggers for the Selah Estremo Mk2, speaker dimensions: 39.5"(H) x 9"(W) x 14"(D).

Are the Parts Express Outrigger kits pretty good or should I be aiming for something more? What about just using these PE spikes and no outriggers? I do kind of like the idea of being able to easily adjust them from the top, like on outriggers.

JazzyG