(4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

[saabracer23]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

Hey Nyt,
I have a question for you. You use big powerful amps, do you use speakon connections? What size wire do you use? I ask as I'm putting something together and want to make sure I do it right.

Thanks,
Dan

[xmax]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

First and foremost I certainly am not trying to criticize your efforts, you obviously have much passion
and loot invested in your system and have a profound interest in reproducing the highest level of accuracy
and IMPACT in your system. That being said I think you can do better and what you have can be saved.
Who am I to be the telling you this? Lets just say I have and currently build speakers, subs and all
sorts of other gear for extremely high profile artist and producers, the last room I tuned was Princes
studio A at Paisley Park. These people can hear things I thought were impossible like brands of cdr's
and different power supplies running their gear! anywho, I love where you are going with your subs,
but I would have to say if you were bottoming the spiders in a sealed cab it is very possible you will
with a ported one, the excursion will be insane above and below the tuning freq. that being said the
extra output may negate you turning the ****ers up so loud! Also with such insanely high energy drivers
that 3/4" or 1" ply you are using is gonna sing as loud as the drivers themselves! and with no damping
material at all the air itself in the cabinet will resonate like a large basketball even with them crossed
very low. The reason I am stepping in here is because I think somebody had to and all is not lost.
I think you should add at least one extra layer of 1" mdf (after you get them in the basement) then
replace all your braces with 2x4's screwed through all layers, then use a less messy finish like veneer
or laminate. I hate to have you do all that work and not have you system come out world class. Cheers.

[Adam_G]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

I personally love the look of the minimalist black finish throughout his audio gear. The visual focus of the room is to be the screen, and minimizing distractions increases immersion in the screen. A high-sheen veneer or laminated finish will glimmer in the light from the projector, which isn't what you want. Matte black is the way to go.

With a digital crossover as the OP is using limiting the upper frequencies the box will see, and the super low distortion measurements of those drivers at the given demands, and the quality of amplifiers in use, there should not be any chance for the boxes to sing given his current build quality. The frequencies of those panels are nowhere near those that should be excited given the frequency range they will be seeing. These aren't pro-sound drivers being asked to go up to 500, 200, or probably even 100hz, but low and ultra low frequency devices.

PS: How much for a ticket? If imax is $15, I'm sure you can get at least $16 ;)

[nyt]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

Hey Nyt,
I have a question for you. You use big powerful amps, do you use speakon connections? What size wire do you use? I ask as I'm putting something together and want to make sure I do it right.

Thanks,
Dan

http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nl4fx-speakon-spx-cable-connector-4p--092-190

http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nl4mpr-speakon-connector-4-pole-round-chassis-mount--092-054

and some 10 gauge copper wire

[nyt]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

I personally love the look of the minimalist black finish throughout his audio gear. The visual focus of the room is to be the screen, and minimizing distractions increases immersion in the screen. A high-sheen veneer or laminated finish will glimmer in the light from the projector, which isn't what you want. Matte black is the way to go.

With a digital crossover as the OP is using limiting the upper frequencies the box will see, and the super low distortion measurements of those drivers at the given demands, and the quality of amplifiers in use, there should not be any chance for the boxes to sing given his current build quality. The frequencies of those panels are nowhere near those that should be excited given the frequency range they will be seeing. These aren't pro-sound drivers being asked to go up to 500, 200, or probably even 100hz, but low and ultra low frequency devices.

PS: How much for a ticket? If imax is $15, I'm sure you can get at least $16 ;)

^^^^ THIS. At least someone understands

I love giving demos, I'd never charge anyone If you're ever on Long Island and want to check it out drop me a line

[nyt]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

First and foremost I certainly am not trying to criticize your efforts, you obviously have much passion
and loot invested in your system and have a profound interest in reproducing the highest level of accuracy
and IMPACT in your system. That being said I think you can do better and what you have can be saved.
Who am I to be the telling you this? Lets just say I have and currently build speakers, subs and all
sorts of other gear for extremely high profile artist and producers, the last room I tuned was Princes
studio A at Paisley Park. These people can hear things I thought were impossible like brands of cdr's
and different power supplies running their gear! anywho, I love where you are going with your subs,
but I would have to say if you were bottoming the spiders in a sealed cab it is very possible you will
with a ported one, the excursion will be insane above and below the tuning freq. that being said the
extra output may negate you turning the ****ers up so loud! Also with such insanely high energy drivers
that 3/4" or 1" ply you are using is gonna sing as loud as the drivers themselves! and with no damping
material at all the air itself in the cabinet will resonate like a large basketball even with them crossed
very low. The reason I am stepping in here is because I think somebody had to and all is not lost.
I think you should add at least one extra layer of 1" mdf (after you get them in the basement) then
replace all your braces with 2x4's screwed through all layers, then use a less messy finish like veneer
or laminate. I hate to have you do all that work and not have you system come out world class. Cheers.

Oh my, where do I start.... well, I guess paragraphs would have helped... I feel like one of those people who come door to door preaching that you need to convert to their religion to be saved just rang my bell.

These people can hear things I thought were impossible like brands of cdr's
and different power supplies running their gear!

Different brands of CDRs? Really? Those pits and lands, or 1's and 0's will sound totally different if its on memorex and not sony media. I bet they need $2000 power cables as well. Even mentioning this threatens your credibility.

I love where you are going with your subs,
but I would have to say if you were bottoming the spiders in a sealed cab it is very possible you will
with a ported one, the excursion will be insane above and below the tuning freq.

wat?

Below, sure, that's what the high pass filter is for. Above? News to me. Now I'm questioning whether you've designed anything of this nature. I believe I posted an excursion graph, did you bother to read it? I've included it again below with a comparison to sealed, with my current filters in place

Ported vs Sealed output


Ported vs Sealed excursion

Also with such insanely high energy drivers
that 3/4" or 1" ply you are using is gonna sing as loud as the drivers themselves! and with no damping
material at all the air itself in the cabinet will resonate like a large basketball even with them crossed
very low.

Oh my, I don't even know where you get these ideas from to be honest. What do you mean by high energy drivers? Drivers don't have energy. Did you mean mass? Maybe excursion? You realize the wavelength of sound at 100hz is about 12 feet yes? The lowest resonant frequency of this box based on dimensions (longest interior side is 44.5") is over 150hz. On subs that are crossed at 80hz with a steep filter, this is irrelevant. But while we're discussing it, please tell me how an inch of damping material is going to affect a 7.5 foot sound wave. I would like to be enlightened on this subject, as clearly this is something I have not dealt with before as this is my first time designing, building, and measuring speaker enclosures.

Also, this is a ported enclosure, it's DESIGNED to have the air resonate. Fortunately for me, that resonant frequency is 15hz. I thought we covered this.

The reason I am stepping in here is because I think somebody had to and all is not lost.
I think you should add at least one extra layer of 1" mdf (after you get them in the basement) then replace all your braces with 2x4's screwed through all layers

.... why? The bracing in place is functioning as intended. Do you honestly thing you can stretch a piece of 3/4" ply? As to adding MDF, the boxes already weigh over 200lbs without the drivers. You'd have to be crazy to add anything to it, especially something that will bring absolutely zero benefit.

then use a less messy finish like veneer or laminate

They're meant to be heard, not looked at. They're in dark corners. Granted, 8 foot tall stacks of subs are kind of imposing, but I'm trying NOT to draw any more attention to them. The duratex surface has turned out well, and will be very durable (I'm guessing this has something to do with why it's marketed as duratex). I will be posting some more pictures later once I get this enclosure inside.

I've measured the output of these, I even posted graphs earlier in the thread. I've fed these full range audio signals, sweeps, pink noise, etc. There is nothing unexpected going on and they perform flawlessly. The enclosure turned out very well, and I can't wait to build and upgrade the rest of my current system, which is already one of the most ridiculous subwoofer setups you will ever come across, to use the new enclosures. While I appreciate the thought, your efforts are very misguided and I question your grasp on the subject. However, I'd love to see some of the enclosures you've designed, built, and tested. Would you be able to post any with the results? Cheers.

[bkeane1259]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

I think you should add at least one extra layer of 1" mdf (after you get them in the basement) then
replace all your braces with 2x4's screwed through all layers, then use a less messy finish like veneer
or laminate. I hate to have you do all that work and not have you system come out world class. Cheers.

The OP's bracing scheme is not pretty but hugely effective in this application. Making a cabinet dense to the point of not being able to move it doesn't always solve the problem. A lot of pro audio applications with similar drivers/cabs don't even employ as much bracing as you see here. Plus the OP has measured the response and NOT seen any ill effects. Why go crazy from that point if it won't yield anything save for extra mass?

If you've not seen a Duratex finish, I suggest you check it out. It's bullet-proof and perfect for this application and way easier than spray paint or any type of laminate. It's not "messy" either. In fact, it's quite the opposite. It's likely the easiest cabinet coating to work with out there.

I see an awful lot of "right" going on here. JMHO.

[joeybutts]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

I see an awful lot of "right" going on here. JMHO.

Word. Also, the duratex is crazy easy.

[nyt]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

The OP's bracing scheme is not pretty but hugely effective in this application. Making a cabinet dense to the point of not being able to move it doesn't always solve the problem. A lot of pro audio applications with similar drivers/cabs don't even employ as much bracing as you see here. Plus the OP has measured the response and NOT seen any ill effects. Why go crazy from that point if it won't yield anything save for extra mass?

If you've not seen a Duratex finish, I suggest you check it out. It's bullet-proof and perfect for this application and way easier than spray paint or any type of laminate. It's not "messy" either. In fact, it's quite the opposite. It's likely the easiest cabinet coating to work with out there.

I see an awful lot of "right" going on here. JMHO.

Thanks, those are some nice builds in your sig

[xmax]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

I also like the Duratex, I just said that because if he had to finish them in the basement because they would be too
heavy to move once the needed mass was added. And yes I have witnessed people hear the difference between cdr's
8-9 times out of 10 blind tested, and they use standard power cables, they are not idiots just professionals. My point
is I work for the type of people that can hear when something is not right. I have learned the hard way. Just thought
I would share some of my knowledge, take it or leave it. and I love the 14,000 watt amps from a 30 amp circuit, reminds me
of the old 500 watt spark-o-static car stereo power boosters, a few caps could only generate the needed 112 amps or
whatever for a few milliseconds, not even a whole kick drum. I bet they are pretty cool amps I just don't like the shady specs.

[nyt]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

I also like the Duratex, I just said that because if he had to finish them in the basement because they would be too
heavy to move once the needed mass was added. And yes I have witnessed people hear the difference between cdr's
8-9 times out of 10 blind tested, and they use standard power cables, they are not idiots just professionals. My point
is I work for the type of people that can hear when something is not right. I have learned the hard way. Just thought
I would share some of my knowledge, take it or leave it. and I love the 14,000 watt amps from a 30 amp circuit, reminds me
of the old 500 watt spark-o-static car stereo power boosters, a few caps could only generate the needed 112 amps or
whatever for a few milliseconds, not even a whole kick drum. I bet they are pretty cool amps I just don't like the shady specs.

You're just digging your hole deeper. Most CDRs are made by Ritek anyway, regardless, a properly written CDR will sound no different from any other properly written CDR. That's how binary works. Read a book :(

As for the amps, you're just showing your ignorance in spades. These are some of the best amplifiers around, used for powering some of the largest venues and touring acts. You might want to research this before flapping your mouth. I'm happy to continue discussing this if you want to bring facts to the table, otherwise this is just beating a dead horse with content that's been covered so many times.

http://labgruppen.com/products/fp_plus_series/c/fp_14000/

http://www.fohonline.com/current-issue/71-showtime/9849-top-10-tours-of-2013-1-bon-jovi.html

http://www.fohonline.com/current-issue/71-showtime/6221-top-10-tours-of-2011-u2-1.html

http://www.fohonline.com/current-issue/21-production-profile/9034-justin-biebers-qbelieveq-world-tour.html

http://www.fohonline.com/component/content/article/4661-top-10-tours-of-2010---1-bon-jovi.html

http://www.fohonline.com/current-issue/71-showtime/9847-3-pink.html

Here are some test results into 4 ohm purely resistive loads from various high end amps.

[xmax]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

Well I never wanted to turn this into something ugly, I am sure many many other people on this forum are thinking the same
thing about the cabinet construction, if a panel vibrates it adds something that is not supposed to be there. I was just trying
to get you to go the extra mile because you have worked so hard already and spent so much money why not have them be
the best they possibly can be!

As far as cdr's go some types work better than others with certain writers, if error correction has to fill in for lost data you
can hear it, (some people better than others) my point being I have learned the hard way how to make subs/monitors/consoles
properly, otherwise I would not eat. For instance I am building a pair of speakers for Dan Auerbach of the Black Keys. Because
these types of people hear things most people don't. (Not power cord voodoo or silly ****) Dan and many others trust my ears.

As far as amps go, max peak power is the last spec I would look at if that's how I chose amplifiers. Ohm's law tells us 120x30=3600w
is available from your outlet. say your amp has 200,000uf of caps (probably not) at 2 ohms all that "energy" is gone in less than 1hz
Do the math. There are many insightful working professionals on this forum, you can learn from them or call them ignorant, your call.

[Adam_G]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

For instance I am building a pair of speakers for Dan Auerbach of the Black Keys. Because
these types of people hear things most people don't. (Not power cord voodoo or silly ****) Dan and many others trust my ears.

I'm glad your ears can hear the non voodoo/silly shlt fixes, but measurements have already been taken of these speakers operating as built and are located in this thread. If you're able to hear something that can't be measured I applaud you, but for all intensive purposes I believe that in this situation your particularly skilled ears aren't necessary.

Do you think that this system could literally blow a woman's clothes off? I've been looking since the italian job...

[xmax]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

No, I know it could and hopefully will! and I should have kept my trap shut!

[nyt]

Re: (4) 2x 18" LMS Ultra 5400 in 15hz 27cube slot ported enclosure

Well I never wanted to turn this into something ugly, I am sure many many other people on this forum are thinking the same
thing about the cabinet construction, if a panel vibrates it adds something that is not supposed to be there. I was just trying
to get you to go the extra mile because you have worked so hard already and spent so much money why not have them be
the best they possibly can be!

As far as cdr's go some types work better than others with certain writers, if error correction has to fill in for lost data you
can hear it, (some people better than others) my point being I have learned the hard way how to make subs/monitors/consoles
properly, otherwise I would not eat. For instance I am building a pair of speakers for Dan Auerbach of the Black Keys. Because
these types of people hear things most people don't. (Not power cord voodoo or silly ****) Dan and many others trust my ears.

As far as amps go, max peak power is the last spec I would look at if that's how I chose amplifiers. Ohm's law tells us 120x30=3600w
is available from your outlet. say your amp has 200,000uf of caps (probably not) at 2 ohms all that "energy" is gone in less than 1hz
Do the math. There are many insightful working professionals on this forum, you can learn from them or call them ignorant, your call.

These are amplifiers, not welders. There's a reason they're rated for program output and not sine wave output. You can argue this all you want, but I posted benchtest results.

As for CDRs, if you burn a CD and verify it after, it will sound no different than any other CD burned to any other media that does not have errors and is properly burnt. Obviously, crappy media will have issues, but those are easily identified. Any properly written CD will sound no different from any other properly written CD. Dead horse.

These are subwoofers meant to reproduce a limited frequency range. Any resonances have been designed to be out of this bandwidth. Can't really argue with the measurements.

There's nothing saying working professionals can't be ignorant on some subjects. I call it as I see it. Your comments show you lack familiarity with what you're discussing. When you make comments on something as an expert without in depth knowledge on it, you're doing a disservice to everyone.

Still waiting to see your design and build threads. Cheers.