Docere MLTL - heavy pics

[bkeane1259]

Jim Griffin's MLTL of Jeff Bagby's Docere. The Docere was the system that Jeff designed and then used in his speaker workshop last December (2013). Jim Griffin is a MLTL design master and the Docere MLTL adds some significant (and clean) low end to an already great woofer, the Meniscus Eclipse W6520R-4.

A detailed build thread can be found HERE

On to some pics...............heavy pics










CONSTRUCTION PICS

[4thtry]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

Great set of pictures! You really know how to create dynamic shots by getting in close
and firing at point blank range. Excellent technique!

I was really impressed with the sound of these at InDIYana. They had a very detailed, uncolored
type sound quality. I did a knuckle rap test on the constrained-layer baffle, first tapping on the
baffle, then tapping on the top, then tapping on the sides. The baffle was really dead compared
to the top & sides. Great job, Bryan!

Bill

[Jay1]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

That baffle must be rock solid. Nice build.

[Jim Griffin]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

Bryan,

Beautiful speakers and solid construction. I'm glad you built the MLTLs.

Did you have a chance to compare the MLTLs to the bookshelf version of the Docere? Any comments on the sound and bass coming from the MLTLs?

Jim

[[email protected]]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

That is a great build Bryan. I will be able to hear these in Grinnel, RIGHT?
Any plans for feet?

[Wolf]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

Bryan,

Beautiful speakers and solid construction. I'm glad you built the MLTLs.

Did you have a chance to compare the MLTLs to the bookshelf version of the Docere? Any comments on the sound and bass coming from the MLTLs?

Jim

We swapped them out at InDIYana, and my honest opinion is that I prefer the bookshelves. The xover I believe needs tweaked with the higher distance to the top of the cabinet for the tweeter, cuz something did not sound right on the tower over the bookshelf. I'm told it may have been the room, but I also felt the bass to be high in group delay from driver to port.

My 2c,
Wolf

[Jim Griffin]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

Wolf,

Thanks for your input on the Docere bookshelf vs. MLTL. But I directed my query toward Bryan because I suspect he has had more listening time than anyone else on these two speakers.

Now in room performance can differ as the MLTL will load the listening room differently vs. the bookshelf.

Wolf said: "I also felt the bass to be high in group delay from driver to port." If you can hear the difference in group delay between these two speakers, then your ears are better than mine and most others especially at typically port tuning frequencies.

Jim

[icor1031]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

Are they your primary speakers now, Bryan?

[Wolf]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

Wolf,

Thanks for your input on the Docere bookshelf vs. MLTL. But I directed my query toward Bryan because I suspect he has had more listening time than anyone else on these two speakers.

Now in room performance can differ as the MLTL will load the listening room differently vs. the bookshelf.

Wolf said: "I also felt the bass to be high in group delay from driver to port." If you can hear the difference in group delay between these two speakers, then your ears are better than mine and most others especially at typically port tuning frequencies.

Jim

The bookshelves are Mike Potoka's, not Bryan's, but I figured any opinion would apply in this case no matter at whom you directed your query.

Like I said- some have told me it was room response and loading issues that made the bass sound as it did in the MLTL. I described what I heard, because the port response was noticeably delayed after the initial transient from the woofer. Is this not Group Delay? Very high Group Delay is noticeable.

I have not heard the MLTL in another room to know if it translates elsewhere, BUT- I could not reproduce it as noticed here at home on my own stuff.

Now 4c,
Wolf

[bkeane1259]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

Are they your primary speakers now, Bryan?

Nah...these are going to be gifted to my best friend for his 50th Birthday later this year. They are very nice-sounding speakers however. It's going tobe tough to let them go.

[bkeane1259]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

That is a great build Bryan. I will be able to hear these in Grinnel, RIGHT?
Any plans for feet?

Yes, they will be attending Iowa with me and I will also try to get the bookshelf version on loan from Mike so we can do another back-to-back comparison. I'd like to get more ears involved with the bookshelf/MLTL comparison.

You will see them with the outriggers you cut for me. Thanks again for those.

[bkeane1259]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

Bryan,

Beautiful speakers and solid construction. I'm glad you built the MLTLs.

Did you have a chance to compare the MLTLs to the bookshelf version of the Docere? Any comments on the sound and bass coming from the MLTLs?

Jim

I put together a demo for the Docere bookshelf/MLTL comparison that covered a broad range of music that I believed would highlight potential differences between the two systems. Honestly, I thought the sonic signature of both systems was identical until we touched on music that dug really deep. In my demo, the revealing tracks were “Say Something” covered by Pentatonix and “Royals” from Lorde. Both of these tracks have lower octave information that was noticeably absent from the bookself version. On the MLTL I had my fingers crossed when I notched up the volume on Royals but the Eclipse woofer seemed very well behaved for such a brutal track. I was thoroughly impressed. At home I put some more time into these and I stick with my initial impressions. I favor the MLTL because it works with the types of music I listen to. If I can have a system that will reproduce a low octave without the aid of a sub, I’m going to prefer it every time. However, that’s the only difference and if you listen to the types of music that have that characteristic 40Hz roll-off, you’d be hard-pressed to tell the difference between the two systems. You should hear the Docere MLTL with some Deadmau5 or Infected Mushroom. There’s a clear winner IMO, there. FWIW, if there was going to be any group delay, I suspect that it would really rear its ugly head on any sort of dubstep material. I’ve not experienced that at all. The bass is punchy, present and deep and i’ve had the MLTLs in three different listening spaces in my house. No difference from space to space. I’ve also beat the living crap out of them and even at high volume, they are clear, revealing and non-fatiguing.

If anyone is interested, here’s the demo from Indy - https://app.box.com/s/jqwiywzbwdhn331d2mgb

[Jim Griffin]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

Bryan,

Thanks for your comments and insight. I usually build prototypes before saying grace over a MLTL design. But for this design I felt confident that it was a winner. As you know Paul Kittinger also took a look at my design and suggested a tweak or two that solidified its performance.

Thanks again for your input.

Jim

[bkeane1259]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

Bryan,

Thanks for your comments and insight. I usually build prototypes before saying grace over a MLTL design. But for this design I felt confident that it was a winner. As you know Paul Kittinger also took a look at my design and suggested a tweak or two that solidified its performance.

Thanks again for your input.

Jim

Yes, I saw that in Mike's original thread. I'm happy to be one of the first builders of the joint Dr Jim/Paul K collaborative MLTL. The Docere MLTL is a solid performer at a great price point.

[bkeane1259]

Re: Docere MLTL - heavy pics

Just an update:

The Docere MLTL was well-received at the Meniscus get-together. Their listening room has a fair amount of treatment that gives it a pretty neutral sound -- perhaps just a tad bass-heavy but good, nonetheless. This issue of group delay or port delay is not a design flaw and just doesn't exist. I'm glad to put it to rest because I never heard it in the first place. However, since I built these, Paul K has redesigned the driver layout to have a more normal aesthetic and it's being offered as a kit at Meniscus under the name DOCERO. So I guess I have a very limited edition Docere MLTL which is fine because the eventual owner is going to love them in October.

Here's what the new design schematic looks like: