InDIYana 2016 write up

[craigk]

It was definitely too large a room for those Morel woofers. Like I also said- they don't bottom out here at home before I find them to be too loud. I don't think they bottomed out 'easily', as only one track did it. As Dan said- others with fairly low bass didn't phase them. It was just the single track. Agreed that they don't care about the front wall of the room they are in. Soundstage is still spacious, but depth of recording does suffer a smidge. As to the knife/gun fight reference, I really didn't think they'd have issue since they took the Fischer-Spooner 'Never Win' track with pride in Matt's listening room. I did not think they should have been okay with that one. Just goes to show how a larger room affects maximum output. I had them spec'd to be fine at about 95dB in a normal room before they started to complain, and the larger room definitely hurt that number. They did fine on Friday at -11dB, but at -9dB on Saturday they had issues. I might also add- I normally shoot for 100dB before issues, but the Morels would not achieve that in single mode according to simulations. I guess that gives me cause for concern to adapt for MWAF. Later, Wolf

I was sitting right beside Dan N when these were playing and we both thought they bottomed out on several other songs. Not as hard as on his test track, but they did bottom out. I think an mtm design would fix this, did I ever mention I really like mtm designs.

[isaeagle4031]

In my test room, (read Mikes place) with the speakers about 4ft from the back wall and about 8ft from the sidewall, the midrange is not bloated at all and imaging is quite good. The scan mid is not quite as detailed as I prefer, but still capable. That may change, we'll see. It was a tight competion and all of the builds were quite good.

[Wolf]

You'll be competing against Eric's PBR's and the revised PA speakers. You may want to consider some paint or veneer. There's this guy in Tennessee...

Heehee, John!

Wolf

[DanP]

Well...

I had a great time once again at InDIYana and, once again, a big thanks to Ben and Matt for all your hard work. I heard a lot of great speakers and as always, left with a brainful of ideas for next year (can't wait to hear what the challenge theme is for 2017).

I'm going to mention some highlights that I recall, but there was much more that I was impressed by that I won't remember while writing this. I will say too, that I was having a hard time hearing through the room in some of the seats I was sitting in and had differing opinions than the rest of the room sometimes.

Jeff B's Testarossas - I'm with Wolf in that I had heard these before and don't remember being blown away, but I was this year. Really, REALLY dynamic sound and I couldn't believe that the RAAL can keep that level of composure down to 1.7kHz. In the front row where I was sitting, the bass seemed very well balanced, which was contrary to reports from further back in the room.

Jeff B/Seth H's Lightning - Again, really dynamic and perfectly balanced. This was the first time I have been really impressed with the Illuminator line and I can see spending the extra money over the Revelators at this point. Seth's cabinet work is immaculate and no doubt contributes to the rock solid bass. Probably best in show at this event for me.

Dan N's Scimitar - Unbelievably complex lines and angles in this enclosure. These sounded fantastic with a nice full-range, well balanced sound. The drivers were well chosen and those Tang Band RBM 8" woofers are sweet!

Craig S's small 3-way - I really liked these 2-toned curved wood enclosures, just big enough to fit the drivers on the baffle. The top end was especially impressive to me (I think I was in a bad seat for these and couldn't hear through the room on the bottom end).

Rory B's Iguana's - First of all, the paint job by Steve Fishe was flawless. I liked the narrow baffle, side-mount-woofer, floor-standing format and there is no way drivers at this price point should sound as good as these did. I think the 6 drivers cost $140 or something like that, but 7-8 octaves of the music spectrum was covered by $60 in drivers (PER PAIR)!!!

John H's Latus 1 sounded really good to me. I liked the AMT tweeter and took John's word for it that it needed the ND16 to fill in the top octave - it all sounded sweet to me. I liked the Udique MTM's too. I've heard plenty of RS150/RS28 combos and these were as good as any of them. Loved the baffles and the enclosure paint job (even though John didn't).

Steve F's Satori 2-way - Ingenious idea for enclosure and executed flawlessly. For those who don't know, he used a premade curved side PE enclosure, then made a tilted, organically shaped baffle and blended them seamlessly to the premade box. He finished it up with a beautiful candy paint job.

As for the Widebody competition, I had Scott S's Indium and Wolf's Cecropia in a dead heat - each doing some things better than the other - until Wolf's little Morel driver farted and I had to give my vote to the Indium. I must have been in a bad seat for Chuck's entry because I didn't hear what the votes implied was the case. I really liked the form factor and angles of Wolf's entry and can't wait to see them painted. The Morel woofer sounded like a winner and one that I'd like to try in the future (glad to see the love for Morel increasing). Scott's Indium was exceptionally well balanced to my ears and the bass was extremely smooth and refined, especially coming from a value woofer.

I appreciate all the great feedback I received on the Hurricanes and the Baronettes. For the Baronettes, the feedback was "those are great - don't touch them!" and for the Hurricanes it was "those could be great - touch them!" I was pretty much done with the Hurricanes, assuming the driver limitations would make improvement very difficult, but after talking with several more knowledgeable OB designers, I will move forward with some physical and electrical alterations to try to bring them up to snuff sonically. I walked away with a nice NLA pair of Morel HU521s from the doorprize table too!

Thanks for a great time guys!

Dan

[Wolf]

I was sitting right beside Dan N when these were playing and we both thought they bottomed out on several other songs. Not as hard as on his test track, but they did bottom out. I think an mtm design would fix this, did I ever mention I really like mtm designs.

Dan said in a personal e-mail that they did fine on the rest of the cuts, and that the PB was the only one of issue. I actually did model a second woofer in the same cab just to see, and my F3 is quite a bit higher, so I'm not making that compromise.

I've already done some simming of a passive 12dB HP at 40 Hz, which I likely have the parts for. Thing is- it'll be a type you don't normally see....., and uses a DPDT to defeat the circuit.

That ought to nuke Xmax issues to 100dB, in reference to the previous 94dB. I'd likely be happy with that in any room.

Later,
Wolf

[DanP]

Dan said in a personal e-mail that they did fine on the rest of the cuts, and that the PB was the only one of issue. I actually did model a second woofer in the same cab just to see, and my F3 is quite a bit higher, so I'm not making that compromise.

I've already done some simming of a passive 12dB HP at 40 Hz, which I likely have the parts for. Thing is- it'll be a type you don't normally see....., and uses a DPDT to defeat the circuit.

That ought to nuke Xmax issues to 100dB, in reference to the previous 94dB. I'd likely be happy with that in any room.

Later,
Wolf

One of the house tracks had purposely distorted bass and for the first few speakers, I thought little woofers were giving out on this track. It wasn't until Dan's Scimitars that I realized it was obviously the track, not the speakers. FWIW, I thought the little Morel was producing VERY impressive bass - both quality and quantity. I might have to rethink this Xmax thing...

Dan

[Wolf]

One of the house tracks had purposely distorted bass and for the first few speakers, I thought little woofers were giving out on this track. It wasn't until Dan's Scimitars that I realized it was obviously the track, not the speakers. FWIW, I thought the little Morel was producing VERY impressive bass - both quality and quantity. I might have to rethink this Xmax thing...

Dan

Care to inform which track? I sorta-listed them above.

What are you rethinking?
Wolf

[DanP]

Care to inform which track? I sorta-listed them above.

What are you rethinking?
Wolf

I'm thinking it was the Kylie Minogue track, but I didn't see a name so I can't verify.

Anyway, your Morel driver and the Dynavox driver that Eric and I used are both small Xmax drivers (4.25mm for the Morel and 2.45mm for the Dynavox), which is something I have shied away from historically if bass was to be among their duties. I thought both these drivers showed up well in the bass department at InDIYana and may have to rethink the importance of this parameter moving forward. Yes, the Morel bottomed out, but I'm sure it was well past Xmax and up until that moment, I thought it had a very commanding bottom end.

Dan

[ani_101]

If I may, I would like to ask for some feedback on my build body build. The corssovers have been designed by RPB but he has not heard them - the only feedback he got was what I told him. He had over 30 sims made for the crossovers, but I build only two of them. It was like he was shooting in the dark, and a blind guy (me) was telling him how close to the target he was.

so, some definite feedback is welcome. Too bad, it couldn't take part in the Widebody competition, and was played only fro a little while, but any and all comments and criticisms are welcome. this definitely was my biggest, heaviest and most complex build...!

The build thread is here: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...de-body-design

If you need to remember what this speaker looked like...

[Jeff B.]

Well...


Jeff B's Testarossas - I'm with Wolf in that I had heard these before and don't remember being blown away, but I was this year. Really, REALLY dynamic sound and I couldn't believe that the RAAL can keep that level of composure down to 1.7kHz. In the front row where I was sitting, the bass seemed very well balanced, which was contrary to reports from further back in the room.

Jeff B/Seth H's Lightning - Again, really dynamic and perfectly balanced. This was the first time I have been really impressed with the Illuminator line and I can see spending the extra money over the Revelators at this point. Seth's cabinet work is immaculate and no doubt contributes to the rock solid bass. Probably best in show at this event for me.

Thanks for a great time guys!

Dan

Thank you on the Testsrossas. They have a different crossover in them compared to when you heard them two years ago. That's why I brought them again. I was concerned that the bass wouldn't be balanced right for the setting, but they surprised me and sounded pretty decent.

Regarding Seth's Lightning speakers, we really played them during the Saturday afternoon session after quite a few people had left. I'm not sure if you were listening then or not, but I came away very happy with that speaker. Clearly one of my best designs. Those drivers will really reward you if you get them dialed in just right.

Jeff

[scottsehlin]

I've had a little now to think about what I heard and saw, but not quite enough time to forget all that -- so now would be a good time for some thoughts regarding InDIYana 2016.

I caught up with some old faces and met some new ones, so that is always a good thing. For the last few years, the bar has definitely been raised from a crossover design perspective. One seldom hears anything that has significant tonal balance issues. Occasionally there is something missing (possibly to tame a driver issue) but even that is getting pretty subtle. Compared to many events, there were a number of really ambitious and surprising designs this year. There were also several very high end designs. All of this combined to give more "wow" moments than I can remember having in a long time.

Some of this ambitious and unique character had to do with the Widebody theme. My 40" tall 16" wide Indium 7's and Wolf's simlarly sized Cecropia's seemed puny next to Chuck's aptly named Victors, Jason P's Enterprise, John Hollander's PA speakers, and Ani's appropriately named Galactic Empires. Chuck's Victors won - they were well balanced and had great bass from the 10" SB Acoustics woofers. I thought John's PA speakers would be a little rough in the mids and overpowering in the bass, but they were a lot more listenable than I imagined (and they could have probably blown the back wall off of the conference room if needed). The Enterprise's made dug deeper than I thought from the Deltalite woofers and the rest was close even though Jason just got them together at the last minute. Wolf's Cecropia's were really quite different than the other entries, being a two way with a 6 1/2" woofer. In the mids and highs, they were like bringing a gun to a knife fight, but as indicated before like bringing a knife to a gun fight from a bass perspective. I thought my Indium 7's might occupy that middle ground with most of the mid/high quality of Wolf's design and most of the bass of the behemoths, but Ultimately the Victors had that covered pretty well also and had better bass. The Galactic Empires, which were not technically in the contest might have been the most surprising speaker of all, not sounding at all boomy or bloated in spite of being truly larger than life and including a 15" woofer.

Aside from the contest, the other entries naturally fell into several categories for me.

Steve Fishe's Kandy Kalsans, Jeff Bagby's Testarossas, Seth's Lightnings, and Dan N's Scimitars were truly no compromise designs. The Testarossas were really my first "wow" moment with the Raal tweeters (and I've heard them on a few other occasions). The Lighnings really had no weaknesses and the Scan 6620 is probably my favorite dome tweeter. The Kandy Kalsan's were visually stunning with mids and highs competitive with the best. The Scimitars were probably the best in show - excelling at everything.

I would call the next group the value category, designs that have squarely reached the point of diminishing returns. Craig S's Gormachos and Eric's PBR's both are very strong performers that include complex geometries and excellent finishing. Dan P's Baronette's exceed expectations just as Dan says they do. They do remind me a little of the "Shrubbery" design I did about 7 years ago with the HiVi D6.8. That is a good thing. John Hollander's Udique and Vultus were both very well executed and displayed John's meticulous craftsmanship. Marks Pracise offered great sound in a small package. It was my first time hearing the Motus woofer and I was impressed. Bill's Isobarik design had great bass when dialed in right and were fully competent elsewhere. The Solstice kit sounded very good on Saturday. Not quite the "wow" impact of the top category, but clearly very good at everything. I had not arrived yet on Friday when it was apparently struggling. Craig S's Dyn's were very smooth and easy to listen to - a reminder that yesterday's technology was quite competent in its own right. Mike's RS225/RS28 TMM sounded well balanced and fully competent.

Finally, there was the budget category - 80% of the performance for 20% of the cost is the general idea. I really liked Dirk's small two ways with the HiVi 5" woofer and Vifa BC25 tweeter. You are looking at about $80 worth of drivers there, but if the cost were twice as much, you still wouldn't feel cheated. Rory's Iguanas were impeccably finished by Steve F. and Rory did a good job integrating a sub $20 side firing woofer with an $8 mid - no small task. Chuck's misfits played before I arrived on Friday, so I'll have to take everyone else's word for it that they are a great design. I think the MCM 2669 midwoofer in Chuck's other designs did better in the bass department than the mids. The Konnections were playing when I arrived, so I was more focused on meet and greet along with speaker hauling at that point and did not really do any critical listening. Jason has clearly done a lot of work on the Lucents, but I'm just not sure I am sold on the mechanical damping concept. I think it is hard to isolate the frequencies you want to damp mechanically without a lot of pretty serious analysis. I do think the bass-treble balance is spot on at this point.

Again, it was a great show. Thanks to Wolf and all others who contribute to putting on InDIYana. The pair of Crown Macrotech's is plenty to drive anything we might throw at them. We could probably do some welding if we need to...

[Wolf]

Thank you all for the comments.

Ani- that was a very progressive build! Nicely done!

Later,
Wolf

[Paul K.]

Ani, if I understand correctly you weren't allowed to compete because one of the drivers was NLA, but that happened some time after you bought the drivers and started the design/build. I think you should have been allowed to compete (and I'm not criticizing Wolf for not letting you do so) since there was no intent by you to cheat nor did you have any control of the situation, plus, after all, no one won a prize for their entry. When I listened to the wide bodies, Chuck's entry just sounded more of a whole to me than the others, and I think your speakers sounded very competitive.
Paul

If I may, I would like to ask for some feedback on my build body build. The corssovers have been designed by RPB but he has not heard them - the only feedback he got was what I told him. He had over 30 sims made for the crossovers, but I build only two of them. It was like he was shooting in the dark, and a blind guy (me) was telling him how close to the target he was.

so, some definite feedback is welcome. Too bad, it couldn't take part in the Widebody competition, and was played only fro a little while, but any and all comments and criticisms are welcome. this definitely was my biggest, heaviest and most complex build...!

The build thread is here: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...de-body-design

If you need to remember what this speaker looked like...

[MusicForMatt]

I think Matt will be able to fill in the blanks with a more succinct and detailed track list.

Pink Noise -20dfFS. One minute.

Then...

1. "The Look of Love". Susanna Hoffs. From the "Austin Powers" Original Soundtrack:

http://www.amazon.com/Austin-Powers-Soundtrack-George-Clinton/dp/B000000OGW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460159065&sr=8-1&keywords=austin+powers+soundtrack

2. "Round Here". Counting Crows. From the album "Across A Wire: Live In New York City":

http://www.amazon.com/Across-Wire-Live-York-City/dp/B000008USI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460159270&sr=8-1&keywords=counting+crows+live+across+a+wire

3. "Mahna Mahna". The Muppets- or, "Mahna Mahna & The Two Snowths". I would recommend this:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Muppet-Show-Anniversary-Collection/dp/B00006IZP8?ie=UTF8&keywords=muppets%20music%20mayhem&qid=1460159491&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

4. "Route 66". Natalie Cole. From a MiniDisc of the album "Unforgettable... With Love":

http://www.amazon.com/Unforgettable-With-Love-Natalie-Cole/dp/B000002H8X?ie=UTF8&keywords=natalie%20cole%20unforgettable%20with%20love&qid=1460159701&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

5. "Doolin-Dalton". The Eagles. From the 2-CD collection "Eagles: The Very Best Of":

http://www.amazon.com/Eagles-The-Very-Best-2CD/dp/B0000CD5FR?ie=UTF8&keywords=eagles%20very%20best&qid=1460159908&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

6. Fever". Kylie Minogue. From the album "Fever":

http://www.amazon.com/Fever-KYLIE-MINOGUE/dp/B00005Y228?ie=UTF8&keywords=kylie%20minogue%20fever&qid=1460160091&ref_=sr_1_1&s=music&sr=1-1

7. Big Star. "Thirteen". From the album "#1 Record":

http://www.amazon.com/1-Record-Big-Star/dp/B00M2D7KGA?ie=UTF8&keywords=big%20star%201%20record&qid=1460160235&ref_=sr_1_1&s=music&sr=1-1

8. Disturbed. "The Sound of Silence". From the album "Immortalized":

http://www.amazon.com/Immortalized-Disturbed/dp/B0106US03M?ie=UTF8&keywords=disturbed%20immortalized&qid=1460160333&ref_=sr_1_1&s=music&sr=1-1

[bkeane1259]

A bunch of great pics from Bill S (4thtry) are up on the MAC archive - http://www.midwestaudioclub.com/even...indiyana-2016/