Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Accuton's when cranked up

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Accuton's when cranked up

    Read a few reviews saying that they are v well behaved and detailed (when used midrange)at low to mid SPLs but at higher levels Accutons can sound a bit harsh/strained. Would this be in part being too close to a resonant peak high up or the opposite, being crossed too low? I'm guessing due to the material/hard cone, they need to be used comfortably within limits.

  • #2
    Accutons reveal like no other. I would wager so long as the unit is behaving fairly linear, people begin to hear the room as 1st and 2nd order reflecrions become excited to the point of being noticable beyond the dominant arrival from the speakers themselvs. What is noticed is the increased distortion due to the higher magnitude of reflections that have raised past the threshold of increasing ambience. The other thing could be the associated equipment. Or recordings. There are times when too revealing is no good.

    The accutons I have heard in a midrange configuration were in DIY designs and Tidal loudspeakers (which are VERY good). The DIY ones I heard in a couple of different rooms and in one in paticular there was a glare I did not hear in other environments. The Tidals were part of an uuber dollar system that has as much into the room and their presence, detail, and sheer listenability was some of the best I have heard at orchestral level volumes.

    I am unsure there has been any technical data that shows there is an issue and if I remember correctly they kippell well (i could be wrong, memory is fuzzy). I would use top shelf scan, eton, or satori first in my opnion not because they are "better", rather I believe they just sound more pleasing to me from soft to rockin' out.
    .

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks for your views, I'd love to try the C90 cells one day. I have no idea what the 'ideal' crossover points are tho. Accuton have a new dedicated midrange cell coming out soon

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by bill poster View Post
        Thanks for your views, I'd love to try the C90 cells one day. I have no idea what the 'ideal' crossover points are tho. Accuton have a new dedicated midrange cell coming out soon
        Ever look at the Audio Technology line up?

        The Cell line is very, very cool.
        .

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes, the CQuenze drivers look super smooth up top.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mzisserson View Post
            Accutons reveal like no other. I would wager so long as the unit is behaving fairly linear, people begin to hear the room as 1st and 2nd order reflecrions become excited to the point of being noticable beyond the dominant arrival from the speakers themselvs. What is noticed is the increased distortion due to the higher magnitude of reflections that have raised past the threshold of increasing ambience. The other thing could be the associated equipment. Or recordings. There are times when too revealing is no good....

            ...I would use top shelf scan, eton, or satori first in my opnion not because they are "better", rather I believe they just sound more pleasing to me from soft to rockin' out.
            You've said several good things here, but the bolded portion is wrong. Look up "Precedence Effect" and you'll see that you've suggested a perceptual impossibility; the reflections are not perceptible as independent sounds, even if at higher SPL than the first-arriving sound, for short delays. What I notice from reflections is a spread in the source that makes the source of the initial sound difficult to locate. No idea how reflections can increase distortion either.

            What were you really thinking, or are you really claiming the world's body of aural perceptual knowledge is incorrect?

            Have fun,
            Frank

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by fbov View Post

              You've said several good things here, but the bolded portion is wrong. Look up "Precedence Effect" and you'll see that you've suggested a perceptual impossibility; the reflections are not perceptible as independent sounds, even if at higher SPL than the first-arriving sound, for short delays. What I notice from reflections is a spread in the source that makes the source of the initial sound difficult to locate. No idea how reflections can increase distortion either.

              What were you really thinking, or are you really claiming the world's body of aural perceptual knowledge is incorrect?

              Have fun,
              Frank
              Hi Frank,
              There is a threshold to the precidence effect where the reflections in a small room no longer simply add to source width. When early reflections do not have time to decay below perception, they will become intfereing. This signifigantly reduces the fidelity of the sound and is often the result of "overdriving" a room. It is discussed through out Tools "Sound Reproduction", paticularly chapters 1-6 where is is discussed at leangth along with the tests/data regarding human perception.

              There will still be a clearly defined focus on the primary arrival from the loudspeakers (the actual precedence effect) however the additiave effect of higher magnitude reflecrions will change timbre/fidelity.

              Edit: Took me several re-reads but I understand where you think I was saying the reflections will supercede the first arrival which is, as you stated, false. Poor wording on my part.
              .

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mzisserson View Post

                Hi Frank,
                There is a threshold to the precidence effect where the reflections in a small room no longer simply add to source width. When early reflections do not have time to decay below perception, they will become intfereing. This signifigantly reduces the fidelity of the sound and is often the result of "overdriving" a room. It is discussed through out Tools "Sound Reproduction", paticularly chapters 1-6 where is is discussed at leangth along with the tests/data regarding human perception.

                There will still be a clearly defined focus on the primary arrival from the loudspeakers (the actual precedence effect) however the additiave effect of higher magnitude reflecrions will change timbre/fidelity.

                Edit: Took me several re-reads but I understand where you think I was saying the reflections will supercede the first arrival which is, as you stated, false. Poor wording on my part.

                BINGO:
                Way back in college, my audio teacher was explaining how to "ring out a room": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringing_out
                I, of course, said "what does it mean to load up a room".
                He replied "it's when the sound pressure level reaches a point where the reverberant sound is more present than the direct sound"

                Having said that, I don't think that AT mids will be used in that situation!








                I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
                "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

                High value, high quality RS150/TB28-537SH bookshelf - TARGAS NLA!
                SB13/Vifa BC25SC06 MTM DCR Galeons-SB13-MTM
                My Voxel min sub Yet-another-Voxel-build

                Tangband W6-sub

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by donradick View Post


                  BINGO:
                  Way back in college, my audio teacher was explaining how to "ring out a room": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringing_out
                  I, of course, said "what does it mean to load up a room".
                  He replied "it's when the sound pressure level reaches a point where the reverberant sound is more present than the direct sound"

                  Having said that, I don't think that AT mids will be used in that situation!






                  Thanks! Never knew that was called "ringing out"... Learn something daily.

                  Careful not to date yourself too much, they have feedback killers now that makes all that work meaningless......Until it dosent work as promised and some young yahoo is running up to the veteran audio engineer in panic ;)
                  .

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bill poster View Post
                    Read a few reviews saying that they are v well behaved and detailed (when used midrange)at low to mid SPLs but at higher levels Accutons can sound a bit harsh/strained. Would this be in part being too close to a resonant peak high up or the opposite, being crossed too low? I'm guessing due to the material/hard cone, they need to be used comfortably within limits.
                    Assuming it's not simply the result of how the woofers were handled in the crossover, and it is some sort of non-linear distortion, I think this would be pretty easy to test via measurements at different SPLs.

                    If the non-linear distortion checks out, then I think it's just mismanagement in the crossover. Because they are hard-coned woofers, they will have breakup and will need a notch filter. If that notch filter isn't strong enough, or is slightly off, then that breakup is going to get more and more annoying as SPL increases. Or, along similar lines, many woofers have a rising midrange hump (I'm looking at you, Scan Speak). This can sound fine at low or moderate levels, even "adding a sense of presence." But at loud levels, it's like being barked at.
                    Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?

                    Paul Carmody's DIY Audio Projects
                    Twitter: @undefinition1

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks Paul. It's hard to find definitive answers to the usable limits of the various smaller Accutons. I've read up on most of the builds and I'm quite intrigued by the Cell C90. just that the price is pretty outrageous.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've always wanted to use an Accuton midrange as part of an "ultimate" build. The prices seem to keep getting further and further out of reach. As a result, it's probably never going to happen.

                        I sure would like to hear a speaker that puts them to good use to get an idea of how much better they are than, say, SS revelators.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Paul Ebert View Post
                          I've always wanted to use an Accuton midrange as part of an "ultimate" build. The prices seem to keep getting further and further out of reach. As a result, it's probably never going to happen.

                          I sure would like to hear a speaker that puts them to good use to get an idea of how much better they are than, say, SS revelators.
                          I believe the biggest difference with an accuton lies within fine detail and the ability to resolve the small transient information across its usable bandwidth. This is likely due to the vanishingly low distortion, underhung coils, and superior impulse responce.

                          Revelator/illumiators give 80%-90% of the accuton performance at "20%" (or thereabouts) of the cost. Its subtle most times, but when it counts, it can be spine-tingling. FWIW, the only other drivers that are on the same plane with the accutons, for me, are those in Vivid loudapeakers. All sorts of patents and designed/built in house so they are inaccessable to us filthy/unwashed. Audio Technology is up there too.

                          I guess at the end of the day if a revelator/illuminator/satori/excel were a better fit for the design as a whole I would go with it.
                          .

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mzisserson View Post

                            I believe the biggest difference with an accuton lies within fine detail and the ability to resolve the small transient information across its usable bandwidth. This is likely due to the vanishingly low distortion, underhung coils, and superior impulse responce.

                            Revelator/illumiators give 80%-90% of the accuton performance at "20%" (or thereabouts) of the cost. Its subtle most times, but when it counts, it can be spine-tingling. FWIW, the only other drivers that are on the same plane with the accutons, for me, are those in Vivid loudapeakers. All sorts of patents and designed/built in house so they are inaccessable to us filthy/unwashed. Audio Technology is up there too.

                            I guess at the end of the day if a revelator/illuminator/satori/excel were a better fit for the design as a whole I would go with it.
                            Does this apply to all of the Accuton drivers or only the really high priced ones (such as the C173-6-096)? In particular, does the C90-6-079 have this magic? I note that it does not have an underhung motor.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Paul Ebert View Post

                              Does this apply to all of the Accuton drivers or only the really high priced ones (such as the C173-6-096)? In particular, does the C90-6-079 have this magic? I note that it does not have an underhung motor.
                              Hi Paul,
                              All Accuton drivers are world class. I have found the difference to be consistent to my ears and how they measure. Even their "cheap" stuff measures extremely well. I think their weakness lies in the cones themselves. There was a thread a couple of years back highlighting a shattered cone, and that was not the only instance I have seen about an Accuton having trouble when asked to stretch to their very limits. No such thing as a free lunch...Between that and dealing with break-up modes they can be a bit of a bear. Paul made a good point also about the rising level of breakup at higher volumes when not properly dealt with. Like a $1,000 oil change on a Ferrari, there is an ongoing price for the performance. Listening to them in Tidal loudspeakers and well executed DIY designs this can be mitigated by fulling understanding the goals of the speaker they are going in and knowing they do not go gracefully when pushed, rather they hit a brick wall. Execution may be the key. For sake of full disclosure I have tip-toed around them as well for many of the reasons (including the sheer cost) that are brought up and have yet to use them myself.
                              .

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X