Car Audio Design

[KevinN]

Yes, using the DEH-80PRS is a good start. If only its EQ was parametric instead of graphic! For my car, the set frequencies for the EQ are all in the wrong places (sigh). Bass in a car can be a problem at times, usually because due to the car's dimensions and the usual position of the subwoofer, you can end up with a pretty deep dip around 60-80 Hz, and a peak below that. You can kind of get around this by crossing over to the subwoofers at a lower frequency, but then you need pretty robust midbass speakers up front (e.g. like the Anarchy 6.5s), and of course a lot of attention will need to be placed to the doors as they can be major sources of rattles. The great thing about car audio is EVERYTHING is near-field and your listening position is fixed. You can tune it with an RTA pretty easily, IF your head unit or processor is up to the task.

This is exactly what i found in my Altima. Seems to be exacerbated by the plastic front door panels acting as crude passive radiators. I was able to find a decent but nowhere near perfect compromise by playing with crossover frequencies, slopes, and time delay on my Pioneer 5000nex head unit. Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

[Brian Steele]

This is exactly what i found in my Altima. Seems to be exacerbated by the plastic front door panels acting as crude passive radiators. I was able to find a decent but nowhere near perfect compromise by playing with crossover frequencies, slopes, and time delay on my Pioneer 5000nex head unit. Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

I ended up cutting off my front speakers @ 160 Hz and investing in some very low distortion subwoofer drivers that I could drive up to 200 Hz without a problem. And using the "rear" speakers to fill in the lower midbass. By faffing around with the time alignment a bit, I was able to find a good compromise. Of course every now and then I think about ripping out the glove compartment and putting a subwoofer in there, but I end up convincing myself that it's too much work for too little reward

[Psycoacoustics]

Luckily for me,,,,, I don't have a long commute. These days, @ 59 years old there is just too much noise in any car I can afford to buy for me to justify spending so much for a car stereo.

Here's an idea. Spend the money on a faster car so you can get home quicker and listen to something that WILL sound good!

Really though, Good Luck! Mark

[NZ Audio]

I thought the pioneer 80prs was rubbish. I've had a ton of processors and there was just something lacking with it.

In saying that there is no audible difference from an old alpine 701 (on digital input) and a top of the line $5000 pioneer ODR system.

A DSP and good install make all the difference with car audio.

If you're looking to improve figure out the largest speakers you can fit up front and tell me the size... then you can select an appropriate midbass and go from there. I prefer large midbass and ES compression drivers as it's a simple 2 way plus sub design. Very easy to tune and sounds amazing. You can pick up second hand horn/CD's cheaply and you will be very happy you did so.

[craigk]

Luckily for me,,,,, I don't have a long commute. These days, @ 59 years old there is just too much noise in any car I can afford to buy for me to justify spending so much for a car stereo. Here's an idea. Spend the money on a faster car so you can get home quicker and listen to something that WILL sound good! Really though, Good Luck! Mark

I thought the pioneer 80prs was rubbish. I've had a ton of processors and there was just something lacking with it. In saying that there is no audible difference from an old pioneer 701 (on digital input) and a top of the line $5000 pioneer ODR system. A DSP and good install make all the difference with car audio. If you're looking to improve figure out the largest speakers you can fit up front and tell me the size... then you can select an appropriate midbass and go from there. I prefer large midbass and ES compression drivers as it's a simple 2 way plus sub design. Very easy to tune and sounds amazing. You can pick up second hand horn/CD's cheaply and you will be very happy you did so.

It is obvious you have never been in a car Matt was driving.

[mattsk8]

Luckily for me,,,,, I don't have a long commute. These days, @ 59 years old there is just too much noise in any car I can afford to buy for me to justify spending so much for a car stereo.

Here's an idea. Spend the money on a faster car so you can get home quicker and listen to something that WILL sound good!

Really though, Good Luck! Mark

Thanks. I was kind of in the same camp as you for a while as far as putting systems in cars, but I really like the Volvo, and the stock stereo in this car was pretty crappy and I already had the system... so I figured, why not? And... so begins the downward spiral . All this did for me is refresh my original reason for why I don't do car systems anymore... too much effort and money with not enough reward. But I'm invested now... so I'm not giving up!

I thought the pioneer 80prs was rubbish. I've had a ton of processors and there was just something lacking with it.

In saying that there is no audible difference from an old pioneer 701 (on digital input) and a top of the line $5000 pioneer ODR system.

A DSP and good install make all the difference with car audio.

If you're looking to improve figure out the largest speakers you can fit up front and tell me the size... then you can select an appropriate midbass and go from there. I prefer large midbass and ES compression drivers as it's a simple 2 way plus sub design. Very easy to tune and sounds amazing. You can pick up second hand horn/CD's cheaply and you will be very happy you did so.

I already posted it here, but 6.5" is as large as I can go (I don't want to get into customizing door panels and I can't fit a larger midbass woofer anywhere else in the front of the car). I have the Meniscus Eclipse 6.5" woofers, but I haven't installed them yet. And, I always figured "bigger is better" with regards to the door speakers, BUT the 4.5" CSS speakers defeated that theory a little bit, they have better midbass than my 6.5" MB Quarts did (and the MB Quarts weren't cheap). What the CSS woofers don't do as well as the MB Quarts did is sound as effortless and open, and they don't play as loud as I'd like them to. Plus... I'd still like a tad warmer midrange than both the MB Quarts and the CSS woofers are giving me.

Also, I figured the DSP was probably going to be my next move, but saying "a good DSP makes all the difference" is a fairly blanket statement... I know how DSPs work, but I need to know which DSP, and I'm still going to have to figure out which speakers will work best in my front doors because even with a DSP, I'll be at the mercy of whatever speakers I use.

So, that said... Which DSP is best bang for buck?... Should I be looking for a speaker with a higher QTS for my front doors, or does that even matter when I'm looking for 80 Hz and up? I could aim for lower than 80 Hz (try for 60 Hz), but I really don't think I'll get it with my shallow mounting depth coupled with the location of my woofers in my doors... Am I chasing magical dragons by trying to find a 6.5" speaker that will have decent midbass when I have such a shallow mounting depth (is this impossible?)? Should I try a pair of Scanspeak Revelator 15w woofers (low QTS)... or try these Eclipse 6.5" woofers... or give up and spend some money on some Focal (or other expensive) components?? These are basically my questions. Not sure if anyone can really answer them because no one has really heard the system, but I thought I'd throw it out there and see if I was missing anything.

[mattsk8]

You can pick up second hand horn/CD's cheaply and you will be very happy you did so.

Also... curious how guys are implementing compression tweeters in cars? I doubt I'll try them, because the tweeters aren't the issue for me in my car... but I'm definitely curious how guys are installing them. Any pics?

[johnnyrichards]

Matt,

If you are looking outside the box and committed to 80Hz and higher, I would give serious consideration to some pro-audio drivers. The CSS is awesome - but it lacks any real sensitivity.

http://www.parts-express.com/faitalpro-6fe100-6-professional-midrange-midbass-woofer-8-ohm--294-1150

I am thinking something like this Faital might be worth a try. Absent eq/boost it might not hit the 80Hz cutoff in a lossy enclosure like a car door, but - it has very high thermal and mechanical power handling (especially if you highpass it at 80hz) so you can definitely use some EQ and wattage to get the response you want. It is reasonably shallow at 3.33", as well. The only drawback I can see is it uses a treated paper cone. That might prove to be unreliable in a car over the years. Otherwise it is a winner - good smooth response, good off-axis response, good sensitivity.

I am curious to see what you end up with - this thread stirred something in me, as well so I reached out to a buddy and am buying one of his JBL MS-8 units from him to do a moderate upgrade to the sh!tty factory system in my Soul.

Good luck!

[mattsk8]

Matt,

If you are looking outside the box and committed to 80Hz and higher, I would give serious consideration to some pro-audio drivers. The CSS is awesome - but it lacks any real sensitivity.

http://www.parts-express.com/faitalpro-6fe100-6-professional-midrange-midbass-woofer-8-ohm--294-1150

I am thinking something like this Faital might be worth a try. Absent eq/boost it might not hit the 80Hz cutoff in a lossy enclosure like a car door, but - it has very high thermal and mechanical power handling (especially if you highpass it at 80hz) so you can definitely use some EQ and wattage to get the response you want. It is reasonably shallow at 3.33", as well. The only drawback I can see is it uses a treated paper cone. That might prove to be unreliable in a car over the years. Otherwise it is a winner - good smooth response, good off-axis response, good sensitivity.

I am curious to see what you end up with - this thread stirred something in me, as well so I reached out to a buddy and am buying one of his JBL MS-8 units from him to do a moderate upgrade to the sh!tty factory system in my Soul.

Good luck!

Nice ... you have my interest piqued with that Fatal for sure!

I know you know... but just to share my experience so far, what I've learned as car systems go.... Either I was delusional 10 or 12 years ago and it really didn't sound as good in my Saab as I remember it sounding (maybe I've come a long ways), or my Volvo is just a really crappy platform for a system. And realistically, either might be true. My issues with the car system, as well as what I've learned are as follows...

1. Separation between the front speakers and my subs- there just isn't much synergy there, but I'm hoping I can fix that by finding the right front door speakers (maybe those Faitals are the answer), and maybe even different subs or go to a single sub (sacrifice some bass/output for sound quality). I'm really curious how one of my SB Acoustics SB29NRX75 woofers would sound in my car.

2. Tweeters in the dash that are aimed at the windshield don't perform the way I anticipated. What seems to happen is... the tweeters are a LOT louder (probably due to the reflection), and they seem to have an enhanced output somewhere between ~2khz and around 4khz- but that might be caused by the "cavity" in my car's dash they're mounted in... so YMMV.

3. I should look into a RTA mic, because the OmniMic is almost worthless in this situation. It seems reliable above roughly 500 Hz... but up to that who knows what's really going on? And, designing a passive crossover in a car is really hard (IMO) for multiple reasons. I think active will be (by far) the best option.

4. Regarding time alignment- I've always tried to avoid this in the past simply because if I time align it for the driver's side, it's going to sound twice as bad on the passenger side. Maybe I'll bite the bullet on this and just set it up for the driver's side? Or, some DSPs have presets (not sure about the car audio ones though?), so I could maybe do 3 presets... one for the driver, one for the passenger, and one for driving the car with a driver and a passenger??

But, I am having fun. The only downside is that when I want to try new speakers, it's a bit of a PIA because I have to remove my door panels, and Volvo didn't make that any too easy, hopefully Soul thought that thru a little better than Volvo did. But, I won't give up, and God willing, someday I'll be content with this car's stereo . I'm also afraid to buy a new head unit. I remember when I got my Eclipse dbl din that I have now, it sounded a little worse than the single din Alpine I replaced with it did (but I kept the Eclipse anyhow because I wanted the navigation). But, I tried a Pioneer AVIC-940bt, and even though the Pioneer had a lot more features, I was sorely disappointed in that over my Eclipse, so back in the box with the Pioneer. Not sure if they've made improvements since then?... that was about 6 or 7 years ago. I want a new one because I want Bluetooth... I bought a JL Audio BT receiver and hooked it to my Eclipse aux, but the JL is a tad noisy and just doesn't sound as good as I hoped.

[johnnyrichards]

If you run Android on your phone, download "Audiotool". Well worth the $8 asking price. It can use calibration files, so may as well pick up one of those cheap Dayton iMM-6 microphones as well.

I use the sh!t out of that app when I am running soundboards or just curious about what other guys are doing with the mix. Very, very useful app that is almost purpose designed for RTA in noisy environments.

[Sydney]

1. Separation between the front speakers and my subs- there just isn't much synergy there, ...

4. Regarding time alignment- I've always tried to avoid this in the past simply because if I time align it for the driver's side, it's going to sound twice as bad on the passenger side....

RE: 1 Bass sound is likely arriving late Perhaps delay on non-bass signal.
RE: 4 Yeah certain tweaks will optimize for 1 position in space at the expense of other positions Again borrowing from the live sound realm - it is often a best compromise ( listening from numerous positions )

[Brian Steele]

4. Regarding time alignment- I've always tried to avoid this in the past simply because if I time align it for the driver's side, it's going to sound twice as bad on the passenger side. Maybe I'll bite the bullet on this and just set it up for the driver's side? Or, some DSPs have presets (not sure about the car audio ones though?), so I could maybe do 3 presets... one for the driver, one for the passenger, and one for driving the car with a driver and a passenger??

The PRS80 allows you to tune for different scenarios - front left, front right, both front, both front and rear, and none. You can store individual settings at last as far as the "fader" option goes, for each position (something I only realized recently).

Most passengers aren't audiophiles, so couldn't care less anyway. I usually leave my PRS set for optimum results for the driver.

[ErinH]

I think I can help provide some feedback to your questions but am exhausted and am about to call it a night. So, I'm sub'ing myself to this so I hopefully will have a chance to reply tomorrow and not forget.

[NZ Audio]

It is obvious you have never been in a car Matt was driving.

????

[NZ Audio]

Thanks. I was kind of in the same camp as you for a while as far as putting systems in cars, but I really like the Volvo, and the stock stereo in this car was pretty crappy and I already had the system... so I figured, why not? And... so begins the downward spiral . All this did for me is refresh my original reason for why I don't do car systems anymore... too much effort and money with not enough reward. But I'm invested now... so I'm not giving up!



I already posted it here, but 6.5" is as large as I can go (I don't want to get into customizing door panels and I can't fit a larger midbass woofer anywhere else in the front of the car). I have the Meniscus Eclipse 6.5" woofers, but I haven't installed them yet. And, I always figured "bigger is better" with regards to the door speakers, BUT the 4.5" CSS speakers defeated that theory a little bit, they have better midbass than my 6.5" MB Quarts did (and the MB Quarts weren't cheap). What the CSS woofers don't do as well as the MB Quarts did is sound as effortless and open, and they don't play as loud as I'd like them to. Plus... I'd still like a tad warmer midrange than both the MB Quarts and the CSS woofers are giving me.

Also, I figured the DSP was probably going to be my next move, but saying "a good DSP makes all the difference" is a fairly blanket statement... I know how DSPs work, but I need to know which DSP, and I'm still going to have to figure out which speakers will work best in my front doors because even with a DSP, I'll be at the mercy of whatever speakers I use.

So, that said... Which DSP is best bang for buck?... Should I be looking for a speaker with a higher QTS for my front doors, or does that even matter when I'm looking for 80 Hz and up? I could aim for lower than 80 Hz (try for 60 Hz), but I really don't think I'll get it with my shallow mounting depth coupled with the location of my woofers in my doors... Am I chasing magical dragons by trying to find a 6.5" speaker that will have decent midbass when I have such a shallow mounting depth (is this impossible?)? Should I try a pair of Scanspeak Revelator 15w woofers (low QTS)... or try these Eclipse 6.5" woofers... or give up and spend some money on some Focal (or other expensive) components?? These are basically my questions. Not sure if anyone can really answer them because no one has really heard the system, but I thought I'd throw it out there and see if I was missing anything.

I had 18sound 6nd430's and they were great. I had my door fully treated and them cut down to 63Hz @ 24db and they were fine. To be safe I raised them back to 80Hz. Great woofer and very recommended for your application.

Do you want a brand new or second hand dsp? What will be your source input?

Pretty much all dsp's have just fine D-A convertors, A-D and then back again then you have to start thinking.

I've played around with audison, rockford, pioneer, alpine and minidsp units. Except the 80prs there was no audible difference. Although the audison wasn't mine and I didn't test it that much. I wasn't much of a fan. Beware of second hand rockford 360.3's, they have ground loop issues. Mosconi make good ones, as do helix. I'd go on the cheap and find yourself a second hand alpine h700 or h800 series unit.