Car Audio Design

[mattsk8]

Taking a look at your pictures, is there any form of gasket on the front of the speaker baffle? I had a V70 in the past and I seemed to recall the front of the speaker had a foam gasket to seal it to the door panel.

For imaging, I have never had much luck with dash mounted tweeters. My best results in the past were to aim a door mounted pod directly to the opposite side persons ear. So passenger tweeter aimed directly at drivers right ear.

The door speakers did originally have a thick, foam gasket around the outside edge of the woofer that mated to the door panel, but I removed it. I actually tried it both ways (with and w/out the foam) and it didn't seem to make that much difference. When I swap the 4.5" CSS speakers I have now for the Eclipse, I'll play with the thicker foam gasket again. Another issue with the location of the door speakers is that because of the design of the speaker mounting bracket, which is designed that way because of the shape of the door panel, the speaker actually tips toward the front of the car a tiny bit... I'd like to try to fix that, but since I only have 3.5" mounting depth, that doesn't leave much room to play. That, plus about 20% of the driver's side speaker is literally behind the side of the dashboard when the door is closed. Not sure who engineered that, but yeesh. Hopefully with this DSP I plan on getting, I'll be able to hammer some form of "sound quality" out of it

I agree about the tweeters; this is actually the first time I've tried them in the dash, the only reason I did was because I wanted to hear how they sounded. Well, that coupled with the fact that the size in the dash was nearly perfect for the tweeters I used. I think with a DSP, I can tame the tweeters- because of how they're mounted, plus the windshield reflection I'm getting a pretty serious bump from around 2khz up to (roughly?) 5khz... and that will be fairly simply to fix with a PEQ.

[GTPlus]

Taking a look at your pictures, is there any form of gasket on the front of the speaker baffle? I had a V70 in the past and I seemed to recall the front of the speaker had a foam gasket to seal it to the door panel.

For imaging, I have never had much luck with dash mounted tweeters. My best results in the past were to aim a door mounted pod directly to the opposite side persons ear. So passenger tweeter aimed directly at drivers right ear.

[captainobvious99]

Was going to chime in, but Erin pretty much covered most of what you need. The DSP will fix a lot of problems and allow for much better sound in the vehicle.

I think most home audio guys tend to dismiss the car, but I find you can get a very lively, fun experience with a well setup system in a vehicle. Yes, the environment is far more destructive to the sound, but that doesn't mean you can't get very good sound in a vehicle. Keep at it and let us know once you get the dsp installed and start tweaking. I've been tuning for a while and have a somewhat advanced tuning setup I use for car audio that really helps me to dial things in nicely. When measuring, you may want to consider doing spacial averages in the head space for a better picture of what is going on instead of a single fixed point.

[DIYfun]

Check out AudioControl's new DSP. I use the DM-810. Easy to use GUI. http://www.audiocontrol.com/car-audi...al-processors/ Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[NZ Audio]

Bang for the buck? The miniDSP or JL Audio's TwK88.

I don't care for the GUI of the miniDSP. But it does have a couple features I like that may or may not be useful for your install (shelf filter and all-pass filter). Otherwise, the JL is my preferred option in the more 'budget' category. Name a DSP and I've used it and probably written a review about it somewhere. From Soundstream's garbage DSP to Helix to Alpine to Pioneer (ODR down to the 80prs).

If you're willing to spend more then Helix's DSP offerings are more powerful and I prefer their GUI to anyone else's. Ultimately the DSP is only as useful as the person using it so expect a learning curve to really dial things in. On the flip side, if you're not looking for that 'uber' SQ sound then I wouldn't go out dropping a boat load of money: stick with the JL or miniDSP and call it a day.

I do recommend you take various DSP GUI's for a test drive. You can download them through their respective mfg's websites; at least for JL and Helix you can (miniDSP is a no go there).



As for speakers, as others have mentioned it depends on the subwoofer and integration in to the system. Qts does matter but the importance is lessened with a properly implemented crossover. A higher Qts with a 4th order filter will net you a greater rolloff than a low Qts with a 2nd order filter. You get where I'm going with this? Typically I integrate a 6-7" midwoofer with a subwoofer at about 80hz. Midwoofer gets a 24dB/octave slope and the sub will get a 2nd order filter. I typically find that method works well. For the absolute best subwoofer/midwoofer integration you want variable phase control which only the Helix currently has. This permits... variable phase... lol. Which is to say, you can increment the phase rotation of the subwoofer in 12.5 degree (I think) increments to better phase align the relationship between the front door mounted woofers and the rear mounted sub. I've had numerous people say my bass was the best they'd heard (if you want to call it bragging, ok, but I'm not shooting for that) and I tell them it all had to do with how I set up the two via phase and proper time/level matching. I had no bands of EQ on my subs (AE IB15HT, infinite baffle configuration paired with JL ZR800 midbass vented externally through the firewall). I've helped probably well over 100 people with their tunes over the years and the variable phase is one of the best features I've ever used. But enough about variable phase... woofer wise, the Qts/Vas/Fs are all related to subwoofer integration and crossover point. A Scan 15w wouldn't cut it for me; not enough cone area and I would have to cross it higher than 100hz to get the output I needed without running in to excursion limitations. I can't say anything about the Eclipse 6.5" because I don't know anything about it.

You don't need expensive components. Especially if you're buying a DSP (which I encourage). There are a lot of DIY type drivers or you can mix and match with car audio drivers as well. Companies like JL audio, Audio Frog, Illusion Audio, etc all make excellent products but they're not cheap. In the car audio world there's not a lot of individual driver options like there are in the home audio market. But needless to say, regardless of your budget you have a lot of options. In some cases increasing your budget buys you a better product and in some cases it's just spending more money. But we can go from there later...



I'm outta time. Gotta get my rear end working. Hope that at least helps.

- Erin

I liked the h701 the best in terms of tuning GUI. Pioneer the least, slightly ahead of minidsp. I heard a lot of people excited about the JL dsp, but not much since it was released.

I'd love fully variable phase, but it's hard to justify the cost when I can just TA and use one of my sound processors lying around.

That and my sound systems always end up being worth more than the car they're in.

[davidroberts]

Here are a thread worth reading if you are going to go down the DSP road.

[Wolf]

Matt- you might be able to find the variable phase doodad in some other products, and I agree it does help align the 'hit' with everything else. IE- Audiobahn (gone, but might find a used one) had a line driver that's main purpose was to boost voltage, and add on the variable phase adjustment. I actually used one in the Marianas home-sub project so I could dial it in at home, and I'm likely going to be keeping it for that use as time goes on.

The other option is to DIY the phase adjustment to mimic that of the plate-amps and the like. It's the same circuit I'm sure, and likely isn't that difficult to build.

Later,
Wolf

Edit: This could work!

http://www.radialeng.com/phazer.php

Another: http://www.littlelabs.com/ibp.html

[mattsk8]

I had 18sound 6nd430's and they were great. I had my door fully treated and them cut down to 63Hz @ 24db and they were fine. To be safe I raised them back to 80Hz. Great woofer and very recommended for your application.

Do you want a brand new or second hand dsp? What will be your source input?

Pretty much all dsp's have just fine D-A convertors, A-D and then back again then you have to start thinking.

I've played around with audison, rockford, pioneer, alpine and minidsp units. Except the 80prs there was no audible difference. Although the audison wasn't mine and I didn't test it that much. I wasn't much of a fan. Beware of second hand rockford 360.3's, they have ground loop issues. Mosconi make good ones, as do helix. I'd go on the cheap and find yourself a second hand alpine h700 or h800 series unit.

That 18sound is very interesting... and 92 db! I'll add that to my "short list" for sure, thanks! I haven't looked at your link for the horn install, but I will.

Bang for the buck? The miniDSP or JL Audio's TwK88.

I don't care for the GUI of the miniDSP. But it does have a couple features I like that may or may not be useful for your install (shelf filter and all-pass filter). Otherwise, the JL is my preferred option in the more 'budget' category. Name a DSP and I've used it and probably written a review about it somewhere. From Soundstream's garbage DSP to Helix to Alpine to Pioneer (ODR down to the 80prs).

If you're willing to spend more then Helix's DSP offerings are more powerful and I prefer their GUI to anyone else's. Ultimately the DSP is only as useful as the person using it so expect a learning curve to really dial things in. On the flip side, if you're not looking for that 'uber' SQ sound then I wouldn't go out dropping a boat load of money: stick with the JL or miniDSP and call it a day.

I do recommend you take various DSP GUI's for a test drive. You can download them through their respective mfg's websites; at least for JL and Helix you can (miniDSP is a no go there).



As for speakers, as others have mentioned it depends on the subwoofer and integration in to the system. Qts does matter but the importance is lessened with a properly implemented crossover. A higher Qts with a 4th order filter will net you a greater rolloff than a low Qts with a 2nd order filter. You get where I'm going with this? Typically I integrate a 6-7" midwoofer with a subwoofer at about 80hz. Midwoofer gets a 24dB/octave slope and the sub will get a 2nd order filter. I typically find that method works well. For the absolute best subwoofer/midwoofer integration you want variable phase control which only the Helix currently has. This permits... variable phase... lol. Which is to say, you can increment the phase rotation of the subwoofer in 12.5 degree (I think) increments to better phase align the relationship between the front door mounted woofers and the rear mounted sub. I've had numerous people say my bass was the best they'd heard (if you want to call it bragging, ok, but I'm not shooting for that) and I tell them it all had to do with how I set up the two via phase and proper time/level matching. I had no bands of EQ on my subs (AE IB15HT, infinite baffle configuration paired with JL ZR800 midbass vented externally through the firewall). I've helped probably well over 100 people with their tunes over the years and the variable phase is one of the best features I've ever used. But enough about variable phase... woofer wise, the Qts/Vas/Fs are all related to subwoofer integration and crossover point. A Scan 15w wouldn't cut it for me; not enough cone area and I would have to cross it higher than 100hz to get the output I needed without running in to excursion limitations. I can't say anything about the Eclipse 6.5" because I don't know anything about it.

You don't need expensive components. Especially if you're buying a DSP (which I encourage). There are a lot of DIY type drivers or you can mix and match with car audio drivers as well. Companies like JL audio, Audio Frog, Illusion Audio, etc all make excellent products but they're not cheap. In the car audio world there's not a lot of individual driver options like there are in the home audio market. But needless to say, regardless of your budget you have a lot of options. In some cases increasing your budget buys you a better product and in some cases it's just spending more money. But we can go from there later...



I'm outta time. Gotta get my rear end working. Hope that at least helps.

- Erin

You're the man Erin! Thanks- and please... brag away , I know from your history here at PE that it isn't BS .

I'm pretty sure I've decided on going with a Pioneer 8200nex head unit, as well as the JL Audio Twk-88 DSP. I'll try those Eclipse woofers in my front doors just because I already have them, and go from there. Unfortunately with the JL DSP, I won't be able to do the "variable phase"... right? I'd spring for the Helix, but those are spendy! Up to $1200 depending on the unit and the features I went with. While the JL is like $400 and the reviews on it are all good.

Out of curiosity... do you have any pics of your AE IB install? Really interested in that. My subs right now are a pair of JL Audio 12w3v2. I like them, they sounded incredible in other cars, but they aren't as "musical" (for lack of a better word) in this Volvo wagon... they HAMMER on some tracks, and are meh on others. And I'm not sure if I want to go bigger than 2.5 cubes (right now I have 1.25 sealed per sub), but I'm not completely opposed to it. I would need to rethink my need for a spare tire if I did go bigger.

[ErinH]

So, that said... Which DSP is best bang for buck?... Should I be looking for a speaker with a higher QTS for my front doors, or does that even matter when I'm looking for 80 Hz and up? I could aim for lower than 80 Hz (try for 60 Hz), but I really don't think I'll get it with my shallow mounting depth coupled with the location of my woofers in my doors... Am I chasing magical dragons by trying to find a 6.5" speaker that will have decent midbass when I have such a shallow mounting depth (is this impossible?)? Should I try a pair of Scanspeak Revelator 15w woofers (low QTS)... or try these Eclipse 6.5" woofers... or give up and spend some money on some Focal (or other expensive) components?? These are basically my questions. Not sure if anyone can really answer them because no one has really heard the system, but I thought I'd throw it out there and see if I was missing anything.

Bang for the buck? The miniDSP or JL Audio's TwK88.

I don't care for the GUI of the miniDSP. But it does have a couple features I like that may or may not be useful for your install (shelf filter and all-pass filter). Otherwise, the JL is my preferred option in the more 'budget' category. Name a DSP and I've used it and probably written a review about it somewhere. From Soundstream's garbage DSP to Helix to Alpine to Pioneer (ODR down to the 80prs).

If you're willing to spend more then Helix's DSP offerings are more powerful and I prefer their GUI to anyone else's. Ultimately the DSP is only as useful as the person using it so expect a learning curve to really dial things in. On the flip side, if you're not looking for that 'uber' SQ sound then I wouldn't go out dropping a boat load of money: stick with the JL or miniDSP and call it a day.

I do recommend you take various DSP GUI's for a test drive. You can download them through their respective mfg's websites; at least for JL and Helix you can (miniDSP is a no go there).



As for speakers, as others have mentioned it depends on the subwoofer and integration in to the system. Qts does matter but the importance is lessened with a properly implemented crossover. A higher Qts with a 4th order filter will net you a greater rolloff than a low Qts with a 2nd order filter. You get where I'm going with this? Typically I integrate a 6-7" midwoofer with a subwoofer at about 80hz. Midwoofer gets a 24dB/octave slope and the sub will get a 2nd order filter. I typically find that method works well. For the absolute best subwoofer/midwoofer integration you want variable phase control which only the Helix currently has. This permits... variable phase... lol. Which is to say, you can increment the phase rotation of the subwoofer in 12.5 degree (I think) increments to better phase align the relationship between the front door mounted woofers and the rear mounted sub. I've had numerous people say my bass was the best they'd heard (if you want to call it bragging, ok, but I'm not shooting for that) and I tell them it all had to do with how I set up the two via phase and proper time/level matching. I had no bands of EQ on my subs (AE IB15HT, infinite baffle configuration paired with JL ZR800 midbass vented externally through the firewall). I've helped probably well over 100 people with their tunes over the years and the variable phase is one of the best features I've ever used. But enough about variable phase... woofer wise, the Qts/Vas/Fs are all related to subwoofer integration and crossover point. A Scan 15w wouldn't cut it for me; not enough cone area and I would have to cross it higher than 100hz to get the output I needed without running in to excursion limitations. I can't say anything about the Eclipse 6.5" because I don't know anything about it.

You don't need expensive components. Especially if you're buying a DSP (which I encourage). There are a lot of DIY type drivers or you can mix and match with car audio drivers as well. Companies like JL audio, Audio Frog, Illusion Audio, etc all make excellent products but they're not cheap. In the car audio world there's not a lot of individual driver options like there are in the home audio market. But needless to say, regardless of your budget you have a lot of options. In some cases increasing your budget buys you a better product and in some cases it's just spending more money. But we can go from there later...



I'm outta time. Gotta get my rear end working. Hope that at least helps.

- Erin

[NZ Audio]

Also... curious how guys are implementing compression tweeters in cars? I doubt I'll try them, because the tweeters aren't the issue for me in my car... but I'm definitely curious how guys are installing them. Any pics?

Under the dash. The full bodies you can cut at 800Hz, mini bodies at 1200Hz. Very recommended, and very easy to tune. My next car I'll be using some and faital pro mids.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/96245-install-pics-horns.html

There's a good thread with horn install pics.

[NZ Audio]

Thanks. I was kind of in the same camp as you for a while as far as putting systems in cars, but I really like the Volvo, and the stock stereo in this car was pretty crappy and I already had the system... so I figured, why not? And... so begins the downward spiral . All this did for me is refresh my original reason for why I don't do car systems anymore... too much effort and money with not enough reward. But I'm invested now... so I'm not giving up!



I already posted it here, but 6.5" is as large as I can go (I don't want to get into customizing door panels and I can't fit a larger midbass woofer anywhere else in the front of the car). I have the Meniscus Eclipse 6.5" woofers, but I haven't installed them yet. And, I always figured "bigger is better" with regards to the door speakers, BUT the 4.5" CSS speakers defeated that theory a little bit, they have better midbass than my 6.5" MB Quarts did (and the MB Quarts weren't cheap). What the CSS woofers don't do as well as the MB Quarts did is sound as effortless and open, and they don't play as loud as I'd like them to. Plus... I'd still like a tad warmer midrange than both the MB Quarts and the CSS woofers are giving me.

Also, I figured the DSP was probably going to be my next move, but saying "a good DSP makes all the difference" is a fairly blanket statement... I know how DSPs work, but I need to know which DSP, and I'm still going to have to figure out which speakers will work best in my front doors because even with a DSP, I'll be at the mercy of whatever speakers I use.

So, that said... Which DSP is best bang for buck?... Should I be looking for a speaker with a higher QTS for my front doors, or does that even matter when I'm looking for 80 Hz and up? I could aim for lower than 80 Hz (try for 60 Hz), but I really don't think I'll get it with my shallow mounting depth coupled with the location of my woofers in my doors... Am I chasing magical dragons by trying to find a 6.5" speaker that will have decent midbass when I have such a shallow mounting depth (is this impossible?)? Should I try a pair of Scanspeak Revelator 15w woofers (low QTS)... or try these Eclipse 6.5" woofers... or give up and spend some money on some Focal (or other expensive) components?? These are basically my questions. Not sure if anyone can really answer them because no one has really heard the system, but I thought I'd throw it out there and see if I was missing anything.

I had 18sound 6nd430's and they were great. I had my door fully treated and them cut down to 63Hz @ 24db and they were fine. To be safe I raised them back to 80Hz. Great woofer and very recommended for your application.

Do you want a brand new or second hand dsp? What will be your source input?

Pretty much all dsp's have just fine D-A convertors, A-D and then back again then you have to start thinking.

I've played around with audison, rockford, pioneer, alpine and minidsp units. Except the 80prs there was no audible difference. Although the audison wasn't mine and I didn't test it that much. I wasn't much of a fan. Beware of second hand rockford 360.3's, they have ground loop issues. Mosconi make good ones, as do helix. I'd go on the cheap and find yourself a second hand alpine h700 or h800 series unit.

[NZ Audio]

It is obvious you have never been in a car Matt was driving.

????

[ErinH]

I think I can help provide some feedback to your questions but am exhausted and am about to call it a night. So, I'm sub'ing myself to this so I hopefully will have a chance to reply tomorrow and not forget.

[Brian Steele]

4. Regarding time alignment- I've always tried to avoid this in the past simply because if I time align it for the driver's side, it's going to sound twice as bad on the passenger side. Maybe I'll bite the bullet on this and just set it up for the driver's side? Or, some DSPs have presets (not sure about the car audio ones though?), so I could maybe do 3 presets... one for the driver, one for the passenger, and one for driving the car with a driver and a passenger??

The PRS80 allows you to tune for different scenarios - front left, front right, both front, both front and rear, and none. You can store individual settings at last as far as the "fader" option goes, for each position (something I only realized recently).

Most passengers aren't audiophiles, so couldn't care less anyway. I usually leave my PRS set for optimum results for the driver.

[Sydney]

1. Separation between the front speakers and my subs- there just isn't much synergy there, ...

4. Regarding time alignment- I've always tried to avoid this in the past simply because if I time align it for the driver's side, it's going to sound twice as bad on the passenger side....

RE: 1 Bass sound is likely arriving late Perhaps delay on non-bass signal.
RE: 4 Yeah certain tweaks will optimize for 1 position in space at the expense of other positions Again borrowing from the live sound realm - it is often a best compromise ( listening from numerous positions )