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What drivers do you wish Dayton would create?

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  • #76
    I am sorry about Rick.
    I didnt know him, but I read about it happening in August last year.+

    And agreed people can destroy anything given a chance

    Comment


    • #77
      A few more things:

      1) I wish to discuss the old Epique's a little more: The discontinued Epique E160CF-8 and E220CF-8 lines were actually quite good. Compared to the Satori MW16TX-8 the Dayton Epique E160CF-8 has significantly lower THD from 50hz to 200hz and just as good elsewhere. High sensitivity which is rare for their size and impedance with a very good motor.

      So where did everything go wrong?
      • The 15db breakup on the 5" E160CF-8. Although I do question how bad it really was, it had great distortion neck to neck with the Satori and normally huge breakups would have distortion spiking far more.
      • The E220CF-8 was a state of the art competitor to the Discovery 8". With a 5mm xmax it makes no sense compared to the Satori WO24p or Scanspeak 22W/8857 for the initial price. They really needed a true woofer for the price
      • The initial price of $300-350 for the E160CF-8 and $350-400+ for the E220CF-8 was a little cuckoo.

      I think it's too soon to head back to the drawing board on a complete redesign of the motor. If Dayton could reintroduce them at a competitive price with easy to use cones, then expand cone materials as I previously posted. Then add a true Epique matching woofer in the 8.5-9" range with greater xmax.

      2) Active speaker crossover solutions are lackluster: What is the cost of a true active speaker or 3.0-7.1 active surround system? What are the obstacles? It's harder than the average person would believe. I'll start by listing the problems
      • If a user wants an active system there are two common paths. MiniDSP or using a computer with the Acourate and Audiolense software.
      • The MiniDSP 10x10 Hd - Good but lacks corrective room software such as Dirac Live. It only has optical inputs which makes it difficult to use with a Playstation, Roku, or basically any modern device as every major manufacturer is trying to get rid of optical audio. Which leaves us with extracting HDMI audio to optical audio which limits us to 48khz and 5.1 channels due to HDMI copy protection laws.
      • The MiniDSP DDRC-88A with BM app - Want to EQ your drivers to flat and correct phase with DIrac Live before doing the crossover at your sitting position? Correct the room with Dirac Live? Have perfect control of routing all channels including subwoofer bass? Easy as pie crossovers! However, once again no HDMI in with the added bonus of analog in/analog out only. So we now must extract HDMI to analog, then feed it to the DDRC-88A, then it converts it back to digital then back to analog. And as another added bonus because it cannot receive HDMI we lose most surround sound codecs (same as the 10X10HD). Amirm of AudioScienceReview stated: "The performance of Minidsp DDRC-88A is just good enough to say it is not broken." when discussing SINAD results in his review.
      • The MiniDSP DDRC-88D with BM app - We can solve the SINAD results with the DDRC-88D but then our issues increase several fold. We now need an 8 channel DAC such as the Lynx Aurora 8 = $$$$. Oh and it requires an AES/EBU source so we can only output to the DDRC-88D with a Lynx aes16e sound card which costs $700. It gets worse now since we are tied to the PC as our only source requiring a discontinued Lynx LS-ADAT to input downgraded optical audio to our PC so that we can listen to our Roku, Playstation, etc.
      • The PC solution using Acourate and Audiolense is very powerful but with a learning curve to match = nightmare. Would require many soundcards or the Lynx AES16e, Lynx Aurora 8 DAC & discontinued LS-ADAT for outside sources.
      I think either Dayton Audio coming out with their own crossover solution with Dirac Live DSP or partnering with MiniDSP for a Dayton exclusive version would be a godsend to speaker building. Considering that Dayton Audio is in the business of selling speaker drivers to me it's a no-brainer.

      So what I think a Dayton active crossover solution should be: A processor which accepts HDMI to extract the audio without degrading quality then have a HDMI video out like a receiver, surround codecs, Dirac Live or similar DSP for correcting the room, frequency response and phase before crossover for each driver, a decent included DAC which measures well with good SINAD results, & volume control. 16 channel output would be ideal since a three way center channel and 3-way left and right speakers would be 9 output channels right there. I wouldn't expect it to be cheap but if done right it could last years for dozens of speakers builds. A passive crossover is difficult, expensive and a hobby I would give up sooner than an active crossover speaker hobby.

      A true receiver with included class D amplifiers would not be a good idea. It would destroy SINAD results if I'm not mistaken so a balanced and RCA cable out to amplifier per channel would be the more ideal solution.
      Last edited by Krillin; 04-09-2022, 07:45 PM.

      Comment


      • #78
        While this does not qualify as something I wish Dayton would create I would say that selling the Wavecor Exclusive line would be a good step forward on PartsExpress. For some reason they appear to be Europe only. However, PartsExpress is an official Wavecor distributor.


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        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Krillin View Post
          While this does not qualify as something I wish Dayton would create I would say that selling the Wavecor Exclusive line would be a good step forward on PartsExpress. For some reason they appear to be Europe only. However, PartsExpress is an official Wavecor distributor.


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          I have been very curious about Wavecor and havent heard much about builds with them.
          Have you used them?

          Comment


          • #80
            No, but check the following:

            https://www.dibirama.altervista.org/
            https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements
            http://zaphaudio.com/blog.html
            https://audioxpress.com/categories/vc-testbench (If you have a subscription you can find more)
            https://www.pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Ar...ompilation.pdf (if you use the web archive you can find more)

            Most of their drivers measure very well. Also, their subwoofers are quite good too.

            Comment


            • #81
              Thanks I will definitely research these links later today!
              Last edited by Chris_Perez; 04-20-2022, 01:51 PM.

              Comment


              • #82
                what about a 4 inch version of the Dayton Epique Subwoofers. made for a really small enclosure like 2 liter @ 50 hz for extreme small designs and wich can even tuned to 40 hz in a 4 liter design for easier solutions. with 8,5 mm xmax like the purify ptt 4.0 but better power handling, i mean if the Epique E150 can handle 200 watts maybe a 4 inch could handle 120 to 150 watts??

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Scarface1 View Post
                  what about a 4 inch version of the Dayton Epique Subwoofers. made for a really small enclosure like 2 liter @ 50 hz for extreme small designs and wich can even tuned to 40 hz in a 4 liter design for easier solutions. with 8,5 mm xmax like the purify ptt 4.0 but better power handling, i mean if the Epique E150 can handle 200 watts maybe a 4 inch could handle 120 to 150 watts??
                  I don't know where to find them, but Kartesian does currently have a pretty similar 4" sub. I think it's speced roughly around 10mm XMAX and 100watts handling, but I could be wrong about that...I saw the spec sheet for it at some point which was enough for T/S values but I don't remember if exact XMAX or wattage was shown or only mentioned relative.
                  I think that seems like a pretty modest "ask" for Dayton if the current Epiques sell well.

                  EDIT: I'm not sure where my mixup came from, but I can't find anything that says Kartesian makes the EpiqueHE woofers for Dayton...my mistake.
                  Last edited by LOUT; 04-21-2022, 12:10 PM.
                  My first 2way build

                  Comment


                  • Scarface1
                    Scarface1 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    i bought the kartesian a few weeks ago and i gonna build a test enclosure this week and they are very well built. they handle 80 watts RMS and have 6.5mm Xmax ,so my tought was this could even better when i saw this tread and instantly was thinking about the Epique e150. you can buy them at TLHP, it's a french site but they ship to USA.

                • #84
                  Originally posted by LOUT View Post
                  (the place that makes the Epique subs for Dayton)
                  Are you certain? Something tells me this not true.
                  Wolf
                  "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                  "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                  "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                  "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                  *InDIYana event website*

                  Photobucket pages:
                  https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

                  My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                  http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                  Comment


                  • Scarface1
                    Scarface1 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Kartesian is a french company who build there products with the hand, it's a very small company and they produce most off there products in china but want to do everything in france in the future. i don't think dayton let a small company who built with hand produce there products. the reason Kartesian only sells in france is because they want to "change" the speaker industry and are very carefull who is involved in the process, so if they make speakers for dayton they would be selling there speakers( kartesian) on partsexpress ( dayton audio is the home brand off partsexpress right???)

                  • LOUT
                    LOUT commented
                    Editing a comment
                    No, I'm pretty sure I was mixed up.
                    I'm guessing I saw a lot of similar things being discussed about both and around the same time, so between that and their similar appearance I must've gotten my wires crossed.
                    I also thought they shared the pretty unique motor/magnet design (the EpiqueHE and Kartesians) but the Kartesians I'm seeing at a quick glance currently seem to have a more traditional-looking magnet arrangement...so I can't claim that as a reason for my mistake.

                  • Scarface1
                    Scarface1 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    LOUT, the 4 inch sub you talked about have a similair design if you look at the BL and inductance curve and the suspension keeps lineair untill Xmax for both but the Epique have a better THD at high excursion because of the MMAG motor design

                • #85
                  I like the combination of the Dayton Audio AMT 2 and AMTPRO, but they have faceplates so dissimilar that installing them together is awkward. It would be even better to get them together, from the factory, on the same faceplate, so that spacing between them can be optimal.

                  I have wished for a robust 1/2-inch tweeter in a small package for 4,000Hz-20,000Hz. Every tweeter available seems to have too big a faceplate, too little power handling, too high a pass band, or too restricted dispersion.

                  Comment


                  • Scarface1
                    Scarface1 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    what about the dayton nd16fa-6? it is 32mm wide, can play to 3500hz.

                • #86
                  1) Open baffle midrange - A Dayton phase plug 5" to 6" mid with usable good off axis response to 3khz. The Dipole6 is discontinued and the Jamo R909 midrange is not available to the public. A neodymium motor to not obstruct the rear wave.

                  Click image for larger version  Name:	Jamo r909.jpg Views:	0 Size:	869.9 KB ID:	1485755Click image for larger version  Name:	Salk archos.jpg Views:	0 Size:	22.2 KB ID:	1485756
                  2) Acoustic metamaterial - Dayton tweeters employing meta would be interesting like KEF. However, lets think beyond tweeters and what about acoustic damping material for midrange enclosures sold by the sheet for DIY speakers. This super "Meta" material has done very well in the Dan Clark Stealth headphones as reviewed by Amirm.

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                  To quote him "Metamaterial is usually a 3-D construct that has better properties than any solid base material. It can be designed to perform a number of acoustic functions from diffusion (to deal with standing waves for example) to resonances (acting as filters to tune the frequency response). We saw an example of such metamaterial in the KEF LS50 Meta speaker I recently reviewed where it was used to reduce reflections within the enclosure better than any normal acoustic material. The down side is cost which as you can imagine is contributing to the retail cost of Stealth."

                  3) New AMT designs - The Dayton AMT designs are a good but Mundorf is still better so I would like to see more updated designs. Also, I'm not sure what happened to the Dayton AMT1-4 since it has very good distortion measurements when measured by Voice Coil magazine. No wonder the AMT1-4 was so good "Dayton Audio's AMT1-4 air motion transformer (AMT) tweeter provides lightning fast and airy high frequency response by using a German-made, genuine Mundorf folded Kapton ribbon." Bring it back please and was the Dayton Esoteric ES104AMT-4 just as good?

                  Click image for larger version  Name:	dayton amt1-4.jpeg Views:	1 Size:	252.0 KB ID:	1485757

                  https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archiv...2013_8_Aug.pdf
                  https://www.daytonaudio.com/images/r...essRelease.pdf

                  Comment


                • #87
                  I see you show a pic of the Salk Archos there. I heard the previous edition with the MDT33, and it is easily placed in my top 10 of experienced builds encountered at DIY events. Jeff did a great job on that xover.

                  As to dipolar mids, the Jamo appears to look like the Zaphaudio ZA14 or the Seas L15, but neither have NIB mags. The Archos used a PHL driver.

                  The TB W5-1611 has been used as such with great results. There are others...

                  Wolf
                  "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                  "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                  "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                  "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                  *InDIYana event website*

                  Photobucket pages:
                  https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

                  My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                  http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                  Comment


                  • #88
                    Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                    As to dipolar mids, the Jamo appears to look like the Zaphaudio ZA14 or the Seas L15, but neither have NIB mags. The Archos used a PHL driver.

                    The TB W5-1611 has been used as such with great results. There are others...

                    Wolf
                    The Jamo uses a custom Seas Excel Hexadyme motor and I'm certain (I own the r909). While this is more of a woofer-mid comparison John_E_Janowitz's post #19 from the link below is very good reason on why a dipole specific driver is beneficial. Pretty large differences especially in required power and fighting the driver frequency response.
                    https://www.diyaudio.com/community/t...advice.233045/

                    I'm not saying there are not good open baffle designs using regular drivers. Just that a dedicated mid would be for DIY use.

                    Comment


                    • #89
                      What I really wish they would create/release is a 3 way amp with built in DSP and up to date wireless inputs eg. BT as a minimum. Something like 50-100Wx2 + 20 for tweeter would do it.

                      Comment


                      • #90
                        Google TinySine TSA7800B.
                        "Everything is nothing without a high sound quality." (Sure Electronics)

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