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Official MWAF 2017 Thread - RESULTS ARE POSTED

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  • #46
    I would have liked to be there and have my Bamboozled project compete (I guess it would be in the open unlimited category?). Unfortunately the distance and border crossing and my work schedule keeps me at home. Maybe one year everything will align and I'll be able to make it out for one of these competitions.
    "I just use off the shelf textbook filters designed for a resistor of 8 ohms with
    exactly a Fc 3K for both drivers, anybody can do it." -Xmax

    Comment


    • #47
      Brian! DUDE you are to hard on yourself!! We all thought you were really on to something with those!
      Great imaging they just needed a little tweeking!

      Comment


      • #48
        Tom Z, you said you were going to represent "Jersey" and you did. Great job Tom, hope to hear them in Brooklyn.

        Comment


        • #49
          On a brighter note, shout out to MVP Javad for renting out a meeting room at the Hampton Inn for a MWAF after party. A number of us met up there after MWAF to have a way better listen to each other's speakers and chat. That was easily the highlight of this trip. It was a blast listening to a number of fantastic speakers up close with familiar music, of course, turned up LOUD, and having extended chatts with all of you![/QUOTE] Javad, thanks for the room at the hotel. I agree Bryan, it was a very good time. we were just getting into the interesting volume levels when we had to close down shop. next time I will have a sub, and we will play music loudly. Bryan, your speakers just need a little tuning in the bass and they will be amazing. Javad. great cabs. also some of the only horn loaded tweeters that I can say I really liked, well done. cant wait to here what you do with the active xover.
          Last edited by craigk; 07-18-2017, 03:11 AM.
          craigk

          " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

          Comment


          • #50
            I could't stay for long for the after party, but Javad thanks for setting it up and the speakers which made it there. Always fun to hand out in a casual atmosphere and listing to music and speakers....!

            Brian, always an issue - I had made several versions of my crossover to add in another 2-3 db of bsc based on feedback from SD, but decided to go with the original one as I felt it missed out on some of the "magic", though the measurements were very similar, the music sounded dull and flat. The XO which I had was for placing the speakers on a desk about 9-12 inched from the back wall and it sounds very full, but out in the middle of the room, the bass is a bit thin. But in the big room, it didn't sound too bad, so it's good i guess.

            Any other feedback on the MCM MTM would be appreciated. These were the MTM with aluminium woofers on a white baffle.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by bcodemz View Post
              Another year, another MWAF, another bunch of cool, excellent speakers! It was great to see many familiar faces and meet new people. However, this year just wasn't my year. I feel like I made a fool of myself this year.

              For those wondering what happened. I brought my Reference Mini's, an exceedingly ambitious "all out" small speaker. It was supposed to be an impressive speaker given the components, the amount of research, and the crazy amount of work that went in. However, I encountered a number of serious, show stopper road blocks along the way. I *really* like speakers, but I had limited time to work on them as I had a number of more important matters in life to take care of. Even after taking a week off from work in order to make time to fix them, I just barely got it functional the night before MWAF.

              However, it sounded extremely muddy and distorted during MWAF. It was because I added 9dB of (mostly) BSC to the speaker for MWAF because at home I have them right against a wall, and I thought I'd add another 3dB to make them sound fuller in a much much larger space vs my smallish living room. Turns out, the MWAF room seemed to really reinforce the <400Hz, so the speaker didn't need the 9dB BSC at all. The 9dB added simply made the speaker sound much more boomy. The +9dB also overloaded the speakers, and the limiter wasn't set due to lack of time, and the speaker distorted from the bass.

              I felt so ashamed after that I don't think I even talked to many of you. I didn't care about not placing, I cared a lot more that I lost respect and probably let a number of people down given the potential of this project. However, next year I'll enter again, and it *will* be meticulously tuned and have a number of bells and whistles from fancy DSP magic.

              On a brighter note, shout out to MVP Javad for renting out a meeting room at the Hampton Inn for a MWAF after party. A number of us met up there after MWAF to have a way better listen to each other's speakers and chat. That was easily the highlight of this trip. It was a blast listening to a number of fantastic speakers up close with familiar music, of course, turned up LOUD, and having extended chatts with all of you!
              Brain, if I'm one of those you were worried about letting down, put that out of your head. When I heard the amount of bass you were able to finesse out of those tiny enclosures, I was floored. At the same time, my first impression was they were too thick, the same thing you realized as soon as you heard them at the contest. By the time we met again at Javad's Hotel, you had taken the additional BSC out and when you played them again I was shocked at how much better they sounded. It's a real shame more people couldn't have heard them again after you fixed em, they were nothing to sneeze at. In fact, I think they held their own against everything that played in the conference room Saturday night and there were some FANTASTIC speakers there. Mission Accomplished on a Reference Mini man, you've got my respect.
              My "No-Name" CC Speaker
              Kerry's "Silverbacks"
              Ben's Synchaeta's for Mom
              The Archers
              Rick's "db" Desktop CBT Arrays
              The Gandalf's

              Comment


              • #52
                A big shout out from Texas to PE and all of the PE employees! You guys rock! The additional space for the event was a pleasant surprise, thank you. The staging area for "next up" helped move things along faster. If we could just get the new guy to remember to call them up. Can't remember his name (sorry man), but I thought he did a great job for a first time. An energy drink towards the end of the day might have helped. Another big shout out to the judges, great group of guys. Looking forward to reading their comments when they arrive in the mail.

                To me, every year's MWAF has improved since I started attending. This was my third and it was Kole's second. He enjoyed it (as much as a 14 year old can). After a while, the same 1 minute snips take their toll, and he's looking for the couch, sorry bout that guys. At least he left the room so the snoring didn't interrupt the competition. We were both pretty wiped from the long drive.

                Kole was honored the Black Widows were the "Fan Favorite", thanks guys and thanks PE for the gift basket. Not to start the next conspiracy theory, but did anyone else notice how the paper colors in the basket matched the colors of the Black Widows. It was fun to crank them up a little after the competition and it was even more fun watching some of the people go over to the subs to see if they were playing. A few were surprised at the bass output. Didn't seem to do as well at Javad's hotel conference room, might have been due to being so much higher off the floor (set them on top of Javad's speakers). There were a lot of compliments at both places, thank you all. One in particular resonated (pun intended) with Kole, thanks Ben.

                Have to admit, kind of surprised the Black Widows took third place in the Dayton class, I placed them a little further down. Kerry's RS100 towers were really impressive for such small drivers and I thought they had a good balance to them. And John's, well they were John's, what else needs to be said. Beautiful and pleasant to listen to. The only difference I heard between John's and Tom's was maybe a little more bass and a little cleaner in the bass notes. Tom's speakers, well they're "One of a kind". Sorry man, had to take the jab due to the RS28 choice. Little did you know, no one else would ever be able to build your "Esoteries" again. Either way, you've got a great reference speaker for all future builds to try to measure up to.

                As for the arrays, my apologies for the delay in hooking them up. Rookie mistakes and I'll do better next year. +1 on what others said earlier, PE needs to plays the Unlimited Class louder in the future. Maybe it was where I was sitting, but it seemed like the arrays were at a lower level then some of the other speakers and it had me extremely concerned during the competition. Someone commented, if you are entering this class, you should be prepared to play at higher levels, I agree. I know, I know, not everyone's gonna agree with that. For the arrays though, it's one of the places they shine. Volume and distortion don't go hand in hand on them and they beg to be turned up. Hope everyone got a chance to hear them after the event, we pushed em a little harder then, and for those wondering, no sub to compliment.

                Can not believe how many great speakers I got to see and hear this year. This had to be the best batch I've seen and heard since attending. Great job guys, all of you! Looking forward to seeing you again next year and looking forward to the next batch of speakers.

                Last edited by Kevin K.; 07-18-2017, 10:44 AM. Reason: Typo
                My "No-Name" CC Speaker
                Kerry's "Silverbacks"
                Ben's Synchaeta's for Mom
                The Archers
                Rick's "db" Desktop CBT Arrays
                The Gandalf's

                Comment


                • #53
                  I want to thank everyone at Parts Express for another fantastic MWAF this year.

                  It's easy to take all this for granted because it's an annual thing and we're all kind of used to it.... but I was just talking to Eileen about how much goes on over these two days... pizza for dinner and refreshments on Friday night, a large, comfortable venue to hang out in over the two day event that's cool and accommodating, tons of fantastic door prizes... and really cool and nice people running the show.

                  Also, there was a willingness to accept input as the event went on and to adjust on the fly... Every year it gets 'tweaked' a bit to make it better, I was surprised how streamlined the process was this year... "On Deck" really helped a lot I think. It was really a nice weekend and I personally look forward to it all year long. It's sort of "The Thing" that I work my year and schedule around... we did our vacation in the area this year as well to stretch it out a bit even.

                  Also, the tent sale.... some amazing deals there.... if you are on the fence about making it to the tent sale, you should if you can. There are some really good bargains here and everything is at a nice discount on top of that. I picked up a few things that were HUGE percentages off normal price. I still can't believe it.
                  I promised my wife I wouldn't purchase any more speaker drivers since I have quite a few already... and I didn't.... Passive Radiators are not speakers. ;) I'll just say the mini van was a lot more crowded on the ride home than the ride there.

                  It was nice meeting and reconnecting with several of you again this year also. I'm so bad with names that it's almost embarrassing, but it was great seeing some fellow speaker nuts again this year... the level of quality seems to be going up and up each year. I think Tech Talk may play a part in that as this is a great way to share information and learn. I've seen "normal guys" do really cool things with speakers and cabinets and it's encouraged me to try some new things myself. Others see us normal guys stretching ourselves a bit with our speakers and do likewise... and so on...

                  PE is very generous and did a lot of extra things to make this an amazing event this year. I'm very thankful and appreciative for all your efforts. I consider you guys more like friends than employees at a business that I purchase from. It was also pretty cool to see the newest 'Chupka' addition to the world. What a 'cutie!' May she grow up to appreciate fine audio sound reproduction.

                  I'll leave you all with a picture my wife will probably yell at me for posting... a shot of her doing a Zip-Line at the Noah's Ark Experience in Kentucky... just about an hour or so away from Springboro... Yup, that's a full-size replica of what they think Noah's Ark might have looked like in the background... it was a football field and a half long... mighty impressive to see.

                  Oh, Eileen might appear to be smiling in this pic, but she was literally scared out of her mind. Me too actually, but I'm not posting that picture. This was the second of five zip lines we both did that day. The third one was nearly a quarter of a mile long, and as I looked down mid-way, I saw the tops of full-grown trees way down there some 30-40 feet below me... that's when I started to almost panic. It was still fun, though. Click image for larger version

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                  TomZ
                  Zarbo Audio Projects Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEZ...aFQSTl6NdOwgxQ * 320-641 Amp Review Youtube: https://youtu.be/ugjfcI5p6m0 *Veneering curves, seams, using heat-lock iron on method *Trimming veneer & tips *Curved Sides glue-up video
                  *Part 2 *Gluing multiple curved laminations of HDF

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Double Post
                    Zarbo Audio Projects Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEZ...aFQSTl6NdOwgxQ * 320-641 Amp Review Youtube: https://youtu.be/ugjfcI5p6m0 *Veneering curves, seams, using heat-lock iron on method *Trimming veneer & tips *Curved Sides glue-up video
                    *Part 2 *Gluing multiple curved laminations of HDF

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Man that Arc is incredible looking Tom. Wish I would have taken the time to stop and look at that, wonder if it was open on Sunday? When you see the dump truck at the bottom of the picture it really gives you an idea of just how big it is, huge!
                      My "No-Name" CC Speaker
                      Kerry's "Silverbacks"
                      Ben's Synchaeta's for Mom
                      The Archers
                      Rick's "db" Desktop CBT Arrays
                      The Gandalf's

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        I like the idea of setting the levels using pink noise limited to only the band from 1K-4K Hz. That is a band that any design should be able to play, and therefore the relative level setting is not thrown off by a design that is bass heavy or bass shy. It allows us to hear designs that are tilted up or down in treble or bass, taking 1K-4K as the "0dB" reference level across the board.

                        It seems to me that it would make sense to separate the "small" designs from the "big" designs for the listening part of the competition. A desktop design might never be expected to play deep, and a mini-monitor might be intended to be used with a subwoofer, and should not be judged deficient if it does not do the sub's job. The difference would be whether the designer wants bass extension to be taken into account in the design, as a judging criterion. Bass extension, or at least bass quality, could even be made an explicit judging criterion, alongside stereo imaging, relevant to the "big" category and not relevant to the "small" category of entries. Then the small speakers could even be given music tracks that are band limited to, say, 125Hz and above, so that the bass has been filtered out and they are not overdriven and all the entries sound alike in the bass.

                        And the "open unlimited" category probably should be renamed "active," since that is really what that category is about. Years ago, the "active" part was probably going to be the addition of an active subwoofer. But these days it more often means using DSP, which does not imply a subwoofer. We are seeing "small" active as well as "big" active designs, and deep bass is not always a goal of the design.

                        It does make sense to allow those designs that are budget minded to compete against each other for best sound, without having to compete against those with unlimited budgets. In that monetary sense, the term "unlimited" makes sense, compared to the limit of $200. And one active design might be budget-minded, while another active design might not.

                        For that matter, I would like to see a prize given for the most economically-minded design, even if it doesn't have sound good enough to compete according to the listening criteria. This means a category of prize that may not depend much on how the speaker sounds, but depends on how the designer expresses the DIY goal of producing something fun or useful on the cheap. Thus, instead of just separating "under $200" designs from cost-no-object designs during the listening, entrants, in whatever listening category, could specify whether or not they want to compete for most overall economically-minded or frugal design.

                        Also, maybe originality, inventiveness, craftsmanship, engineering, and other such criteria could be rewarded by separate prizes instead of being criteria on the same ballot with the listening criteria. In other words, there would be a set of prizes based ONLY on how the speakers sound (timbre, imaging, bass extension, dynamics), and ANOTHER set of prizes based on other things that may or may not affect the sound, such as woodworking craft, electronics craft, concept, visual appeal, use of Dayton products, and economy. The judges for these categories of prizes need not even be the same judges as the ones who listen to the sound.

                        I know there is a limit to how complicated the balloting and judging can get before it becomes unworkable, but I am looking at the logic of it all. Every year, it seems, someone brings a design that is remarkable in one way or another (some marvel of trans-lam industry and elegance, or ingenious use of PVC pipe, or keeping the whole project under $10), but because it does not sound good enough to make it into the top three in its category, it goes unrewarded.

                        Meredith

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                        • #57
                          The Active designs falling in the open unlimited category only worries me for next year. I build only what I am intending to use for years, and my complete full range system I'm hoping to throw in the mix next year is active. However, it is a budget design without DSP (analog active crossover) that would tip under $200 depending on how much of the electronics is included in the $. I don't think it would compete very well against a DSP rig with many more 100's of dollars in drivers.

                          I'll throw in anyway just for fun, but it would be interesting to see actives compete in budget categories too.
                          Electronics engineer, woofer enthusiast, and musician.
                          Wogg Music
                          Published projects: PPA100 Bass Guitar Amp, ISO El-Cheapo Sub, Indy 8 2.1 powered sub, MicroSat, SuperNova Minimus

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by wogg View Post
                            The Active designs falling in the open unlimited category only worries me for next year. I build only what I am intending to use for years, and my complete full range system I'm hoping to throw in the mix next year is active. However, it is a budget design without DSP (analog active crossover) that would tip under $200 depending on how much of the electronics is included in the $. I don't think it would compete very well against a DSP rig with many more 100's of dollars in drivers.

                            I'll throw in anyway just for fun, but it would be interesting to see actives compete in budget categories too.
                            Can you elaborate it a bit? Is it active, just because it has a amp? Can you not bypass the amp and use the house amp if it is the case. How are doing the XO without the DSP?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ani_101 View Post

                              Can you elaborate it a bit? Is it active, just because it has a amp? Can you not bypass the amp and use the house amp if it is the case. How are doing the XO without the DSP?
                              Back in the olden days, active crossovers were made using these things called "op-amps". For an example, have a look at the Linkwitz Orion.
                              "I just use off the shelf textbook filters designed for a resistor of 8 ohms with
                              exactly a Fc 3K for both drivers, anybody can do it." -Xmax

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by dcibel View Post

                                Back in the olden days, active crossovers were made using these things called "op-amps". For an example, have a look at the Linkwitz Orion.
                                LOL... this.

                                It'll be this project with a pair of micro-satellites currently in the "how am I going to put these together" phase.
                                Electronics engineer, woofer enthusiast, and musician.
                                Wogg Music
                                Published projects: PPA100 Bass Guitar Amp, ISO El-Cheapo Sub, Indy 8 2.1 powered sub, MicroSat, SuperNova Minimus

                                Comment

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