Anarchy/Wavecor MTM

[hongrn]

The TM version looks like it would be low on sensitivity !?
donc

TMM or MTM will improve on that.

[Pete Schumacher]

TMM or MTM will improve on that.

The TM will use the 4 Ohm version of the Anarchy. A bit on the low sensitivity side, not horrible, but the low end extension is worth it. Probably wind up as about 85dB/ 2.83V

The MTM uses a pair of 8 Ohm woofers in parallel. Around 88dB/2.83V

[emilime75]

I've been working on an 3 way active design with a pair of Anarchies(4 ohm) and BG Neo8/Neo3, those woofers are quite good.

[Pete Schumacher]

I've been working on an 3 way active design with a pair of Anarchies(4 ohm) and BG Neo8/Neo3, those woofers are quite good.

They do have prodigious bass capabilities. Erich's been talking with me about possibly doing a 3-way with the Morel dome mid and a Fountek or Beston ribbon/planar tweeter. I'll have to look at perhaps putting these woofers in a tapered transmission line . . .

[mattsk8]

Listening to one speaker at the moment doesn't give me the full sense of staging and imaging, but I'm not really hearing any "roughness" so far.

What recordings gave you that impression? Where were you crossing the tweeter and to which woofer? Are you sure it was the tweeter and not the woofer? Just curious about the scenario you were using.

I was using the Wavecor WF182BD10 woofer. I originally wanted to do the build using the 4 ohm woofer, but Meniscus had the 8 ohm woofer in stock and I didn't want to wait. So... off to work I went building cabinets and designing a xover. I ended up crossing at around 2400 Hz. IMHO, the tweeter can obviously cross a lot lower than 2.4k, but I think that waveguide kills dynamics so I tried to get away from it (and the Wavecor woofer had no issues going that high). I had a ruler flat response, but NOTHING I tried made it sound good to my ears. Craig and I got together one night and we threw the mic out and just started throwing xover components at it to see if we could get it to sound respectable. We eventually got it sounding respectable (not good, but respectable), then I measured whatever Frankenstein xover we came up with and it was pretty rough. So I started manipulating some of the values to tame some peaks and fill some dips and eventually got it sounding decent... but not enough that I was happy with it. I actually took it to MWAF a couple years ago.

I did everything to that tweeter trying to make it sound good, everything from getting crazy with xover design, to tearing the tweeter apart and pulling the foam ring out and loosely stuffing the chamber with polyfill. But in the end, nothing really satisfied so I put it back to original. I personally wouldn't characterize it as rough sounding though; staging and imaging are definitely where it lacked, it also just sounded dull (no real sparkle). I had a ruler flat response, but that didn't seem to matter. IMHO, you should try the non-waveguide version of that tweeter... I never did, but I think the enhanced lower range induced by the WG are what kills it, and the non-waveguide will cross almost as low (if not as low?).

As far as the Wavecor woofer... I absolutely LOVE it. I'd even put in... (dare I say)... Revelator territory. Amazing bass, respectable output (not insane, but respectable)... and the mids are absolutely incredible. I did another build with the WF182BD09 (4 ohm version) paired with a couple 8" SB subs and a Satori tweeter and it's absolutely amazing. So... it definitely was NOT the woofer's fault in the TM build .

As far as music... we listened to just about everything (minus rap or classical).

[dcibel]

I think that waveguide kills dynamics

This sounds backwards to me, as I've not had a waveguide do anything other than improve dynamics in my experience. Now the waveguide on these tweeters is quite small, so it doesn't provide much in the way of low end boost, however it does do enough to remove the effects of the baffle from affecting the tweeter response. Have a look at the Wavecor off-axis measurements at AudioXpress compared to a couple other nice tweeters. These were all measured on a baffle:

Wavecor:


Satori:


Morel Supreme:


Scan-Speak D2604:

[mattsk8]

This sounds backwards to me, as I've not had a waveguide do anything other than improve dynamics in my experience. Now the waveguide on these tweeters is quite small, so it doesn't provide much in the way of low end boost, however it does do enough to remove the effects of the baffle from affecting the tweeter response. Have a look at the Wavecor off-axis measurements at AudioXpress compared to a couple other nice tweeters. These were all measured on a baffle:

When I originally measured the tweeter and the midwoofer I used, I thought I positively had a homerun because the measurements looked so incredible. The on and off axis of the tweeter's response looked amazing. But, it sounded like $hit and I didn't care enough to quantify why... short of spending an arduous amount of time on the xover trying to find something that might make it sound respectable. Since you have a pair of these tweeters tear it up, do a build and make it work, maybe I missed something.

[Pete Schumacher]

I was using the Wavecor WF182BD10 woofer. I originally wanted to do the build using the 4 ohm woofer, but Meniscus had the 8 ohm woofer in stock and I didn't want to wait. So... off to work I went building cabinets and designing a xover. I ended up crossing at around 2400 Hz. IMHO, the tweeter can obviously cross a lot lower than 2.4k, but I think that waveguide kills dynamics so I tried to get away from it (and the Wavecor woofer had no issues going that high). I had a ruler flat response, but NOTHING I tried made it sound good to my ears. Craig and I got together one night and we threw the mic out and just started throwing xover components at it to see if we could get it to sound respectable. We eventually got it sounding respectable (not good, but respectable), then I measured whatever Frankenstein xover we came up with and it was pretty rough. So I started manipulating some of the values to tame some peaks and fill some dips and eventually got it sounding decent... but not enough that I was happy with it. I actually took it to MWAF a couple years ago.

I did everything to that tweeter trying to make it sound good, everything from getting crazy with xover design, to tearing the tweeter apart and pulling the foam ring out and loosely stuffing the chamber with polyfill. But in the end, nothing really satisfied so I put it back to original. I personally wouldn't characterize it as rough sounding though; staging and imaging are definitely where it lacked, it also just sounded dull (no real sparkle). I had a ruler flat response, but that didn't seem to matter. IMHO, you should try the non-waveguide version of that tweeter... I never did, but I think the enhanced lower range induced by the WG are what kills it, and the non-waveguide will cross almost as low (if not as low?).

As far as the Wavecor woofer... I absolutely LOVE it. I'd even put in... (dare I say)... Revelator territory. Amazing bass, respectable output (not insane, but respectable)... and the mids are absolutely incredible. I did another build with the WF182BD09 (4 ohm version) paired with a couple 8" SB subs and a Satori tweeter and it's absolutely amazing. So... it definitely was NOT the woofer's fault in the TM build .

As far as music... we listened to just about everything (minus rap or classical).

When I get the other speaker up and running, I'll put them through an extended listening session. FYI, I'm not a big fan of fabric dome tweeters in general as most every one I've ever listened to sounds a bit lifeless compared to a similarly performing metal dome. That said, I've been fairly satisfied so far with the mono sound of this pairing of woofer and tweeter. Vocals sound very clear and plenty detailed. No edginess that I've been able to detect. I've noticed that the distortion performance of this tweeter is pretty good too. But without the second speaker, there's no way to evaluate staging and imaging.

I will add a big ditto to your impressions of the WF182. Phenomenal woofers. But I would hesitate trying to cross a 7" woofer with that tweeter at 2400Hz or higher, not because the woofer can't go that high, but because the off axis performance of the XO would suffer dramatically because of it. Crossing where I am at 1300 with this tweeter still has its issues with directivity mismatch, but that would only get worse the higher they are crossed. I would love to see this tweeter redesigned with a larger waveguide because of that. I don't know why the manufacturers are set on the size of the flange the way they seem to be. At least the DXT from SEAS is a respectable attempt to provide real directivity control to match a 7" - 8" woofer.

[mattsk8]

I'm not a big fan of fabric dome tweeters in general as most every one I've ever listened to sounds a bit lifeless compared to a similarly performing metal dome.

Careful, you'll start a war . I like the XT25 a lot, and if the Satori was a woman... oooooh baby!! I LOVE the Satori.

I'd still like to try the non-waveguide version of the Wavecor. IMO, from listening to the WG version, everything was close to being there (probably why I spent so much time on it), it just... lacked for no good reason (to my ears anyhow)... I chalked it up to being drown out by the WG but that was a wild guess. I'd love to hear the other Wavecor tweeter, and probably should've invested more time in that build and tried it. According to Wavecor, the non-wg version will cross as low as the WG version.

[Pete Schumacher]

Careful, you'll start a war . I like the XT25 a lot, and if the Satori was a woman... oooooh baby!! I LOVE the Satori.

I'd still like to try the non-waveguide version of the Wavecor. IMO, from listening to the WG version, everything was close to being there (probably why I spent so much time on it), it just... lacked for no good reason (to my ears anyhow)... I chalked it up to being drown out by the WG but that was a wild guess. I'd love to hear the other Wavecor tweeter, and probably should've invested more time in that build and tried it. According to Wavecor, the non-wg version will cross as low as the WG version.

Fan of the XT25 eh? Erich's experimenting with the flange-less version in the SEOS-8. I'm very curious to see how it performs. The pic he sent me looks very good. Based on the XT25 response, this guide should allow operation to below 2000Hz, and I'd wager as low as 1000. Distortion plots will be the deciding factor of course.

[mattsk8]

Fan of the XT25 eh? Erich's experimenting with the flange-less version in the SEOS-8. I'm very curious to see how it performs. The pic he sent me looks very good. Based on the XT25 response, this guide should allow operation to below 2000Hz, and I'd wager as low as 1000. Distortion plots will be the deciding factor of course.

Tell him to get busy!! I have a pair of HiVi L6-4R woofers just waiting in a box on a shelf over here for those!! I have the XT25 tweeters too!

[Pete Schumacher]

Tell him to get busy!! I have a pair of HiVi L6-4R woofers just waiting in a box on a shelf over here for those!! I have the XT25 tweeters too!

The XT25 with the flange won't fit the SEOS-8. You'd have to remove the flange if that's possible. He's using an OEM version that comes without the flange.

[dcibel]

https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-xt25sc40-04-1-ring-radiator-xt-tweeter-4-ohm--264-1642

[mattsk8]

Hopefully I don't need to go that route. IIRC, TN Allen was able to remove the face without damaging the tweeter. He actually made me 3 different size waveguides but (to my shame) I haven't had a chance to try them yet. But if Erich makes that WG it would be simple for me to try. Even if the face doesn't come off easy, I'm willing to drop the $19 on the one in dcibel 's link to give it a whirl. But I do have 3 XT25TG30 tweeters on hand, so I'm willing to sacrifice one to try it if a pair of Erich's waveguides were available ;)

[mattsk8]

And... sorry for the thread robbery Pete. On subject, I can't wait to hear your build. Hopefully you find something I missed in that tweeter and I've always wanted to play with the Anarchy woofers.