A good tweeter to match 5" SB Acoustics Magnesium Woofers

[xmax]

If you need a certain transfer function to achieve a target, ratios are not the way to go about it. The graph below is the same 2nd order electrical discussed earlier. The black curve is the original, the second one is with the values doubled, the ratio is identical. Hence why thinking in terms of ratios is immaterial, it's whatever it takes to achieve a target, although the actual transfer function of the electrical network is not generally even viewed closely other than for total system spectrum impedance to ensure reasonable magnitude.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]n1360050[/ATTACH]

dlr

Luckily we are allowed to disagree here, I have researched this for years and certain "filters" and "eq's" mostly in mixing/mastering circles
have become extremely sought after and reproduced partly because of the cap/coil ratios. Looking at some of these topologies with a scope might
be helpful, maybe I will get one out tonight.

[xmax]

I think this will be my new sig.

I'm having Danny Richie flashbacks.

I think I will make all of this my sig.

[dlr]

If you need a certain transfer function to achieve a target, ratios are not the way to go about it. The graph below is the same 2nd order electrical discussed earlier. The black curve is the original, the second one is with the values doubled, the ratio is identical. Hence why thinking in terms of ratios is immaterial, it's whatever it takes to achieve a target, although the actual transfer function of the electrical network is not generally even viewed closely other than for total system spectrum impedance to ensure reasonable magnitude.



dlr

[Wushuliu]

When I get done with these Monitors I am doing for the Grammy award winning recording
engineer for "Rock Record of the Year" (Grammys) last year. I will take some more time with this silly test. I have mounds
of test equipment I have not dug out yet.

I think this will be my new sig.

I'm having Danny Richie flashbacks.

[xmax]

I see now, you looked at the PETT forum and thought "here's a bunch of idiots that don't know what they're doing" and thought you'd join the party!

Of course, the filter type defines the transfer function, phase characteristics are defined by the transfer function so you can't have one without the other. However for acoustic design, the strict electrical definition of butterworth, L-R, etc can be thrown out, since we are not designing an electrical filter but an acoustic filter, and the filter is applied to both a non-linear electrical device, and a non-linear acoustic output, and multiple acoustic sources (each driver radiating from different points in space), so the cap/coil ratios are whatever they need to be to achieve the intended frequency and phase correlation at the acoustic end, whether 2nd order, 4th order, etc, it is defined by a combination of the electrical and acoustic characteristics.

I understand exactly what you are saying and we can agree to disagree. Perhaps this is part of everything we are talking about. I plan on finding out.

[dlr]

I should have noted my last 2 designs (and current) use a Volt 3" soft dome, it of course allows higher and "softer"
filter alignments for the tweeter, the off axis of the big dome is much different. So listening to a tweeter with this
type of filter verses the small 2 way is like apples to oranges. That said my most popular design (like at 3rd Man)
uses a 6" and compact SB tweeter so I'm not completely alien to the concept. I think it is a combination of polar,
response and other factors.

One thing I've found over the years is that designing a system with the top rank of drivers is a far, far easier task than taking average or run-of-the-mill drivers and designing a good sounding system. Folks here at PE are often trying to make do with what they may be able to afford at the time. I'm not impressed with a good system using high end drivers, that's rather easy to do.

I am, however, often impressed with the quality of cabinetry many of the board members here are capable of. IMO that's the difficult part of speaker systems, not the crossovers. Mistakes in crossovers are easily corrected, not so woodwork.

dlr

[xmax]

You have been thinking that and it is because you are new to PE TT. These things have been and still are discussed. For years. You took on an attitude that nobody here ever heard of any of it. Going back to when Madisound was the big discussion board we had Siegfried Linkwitz involved in lively debates with johnk (Music and Design) and many others of us. Many of us don't frequent the board as much for various reasons, but one is that what piqued our interest and involvement were aspects that have been debated at length and we don't have the desire at times to re-hash debates of the past.

We continually get new members and many of them have not had benefit of the past debates, so of course those asking questions (usually the newer members) have yet to learn what many others of us already know. We have members who can answer pretty much any question asked, you're not the lone person of advanced design knowledge on this board that you seem to imply.

dlr

I did not mean to imply that I am "a lone person of advanced design knowledge" I know their are plenty of extremely talented people
here. But I do see strong "trends" of the way things are to be done. I guess I wanted see if anybody else agreed with me and I'm
seeing who knows what now.

[Kornbread]

Guys, I'm finding a lot of useful information in this thread, even though it's wandered way off the OP's original question. Keep it up!

Xmax, I like it when someone challenges the status quo, whether they're right or wrong, if gets the mind to thinking of other possibilities and often brings up lively and informative threads like this one ... but ... if you didn't come off as such a pompous a$$, it might lend more credibility to your posts.

Just saying.

[dlr]

If I was new to this and looked at the PE TT forum I would think LR or Butterworth only refers to the dB down at Fc and phase characteristics.
I personally feel cap and coil ratios are more important.

You have been thinking that and it is because you are new to PE TT. These things have been and still are discussed. For years. You took on an attitude that nobody here ever heard of any of it. Going back to when Madisound was the big discussion board we had Siegfried Linkwitz involved in lively debates with johnk (Music and Design) and many others of us. Many of us don't frequent the board as much for various reasons, but one is that what piqued our interest and involvement were aspects that were then debated at length and we don't have the desire at times to re-hash debates of the past.

We continually get new members and many of them have not had benefit of the past debates, so of course those asking questions (usually the newer members) have yet to learn what many others of us already know. We have members who can answer pretty much any question asked, you're not the lone person of advanced design knowledge on this board that you seem to imply.

dlr

[dcibel]

When I find one of the articles I like on the subject I will share it with you, Since I also design audio electronics I deal with filters with everything
from power supplies (I have sold about a million dollars worth) to EQ's to line level filters (I use them in my speaker systems too).
The names Butterworth, Bessel, Chebyshev etc are named for their things like transfer function, Q, and transient attributes among other reasons.

If I was new to this and looked at the PE TT forum I would think LR or Butterworth only refers to the dB down at Fc and phase characteristics.
I personally feel cap and coil ratios are more important.

I see now, you looked at the PETT forum and thought "here's a bunch of idiots that don't know what they're doing" and thought you'd join the party!

Of course, the filter type defines the transfer function, phase characteristics are defined by the transfer function so you can't have one without the other. However for acoustic design, the strict electrical definition of butterworth, L-R, etc can be thrown out, since we are not designing an electrical filter but an acoustic filter, and the filter is applied to both a non-linear electrical device, and a non-linear acoustic output, and multiple acoustic sources (each driver radiating from different points in space), so the cap/coil ratios are whatever they need to be to achieve the intended frequency and phase correlation at the acoustic end, whether 2nd order, 4th order, etc, it is defined by a combination of the electrical and acoustic characteristics.

[dcibel]

The way I deal with some of these issues. This helps avoid a BBC dip on axis.

Ah, this must be the "anti-waveguide". Absorption instead of reflection.

[xmax]

Please explain this ratio and poi nt me in the direction where I can read about it. I am not sure how you do this since every tweeter os different and the cross over points are infinite with all the different roll offs. Maybe there is a generic rule ?

When I find one of the articles I like on the subject I will share it with you, Since I also design audio electronics I deal with filters with everything
from power supplies (I have sold about a million dollars worth) to EQ's to line level filters (I use them in my speaker systems too).
The names Butterworth, Bessel, Chebyshev etc are named for their things like transfer function, Q, and transient attributes among other reasons.

If I was new to this and looked at the PE TT forum I would think LR or Butterworth only refers to the dB down at Fc and phase characteristics.
I personally feel cap and coil ratios are more important.

[xmax]

The way I deal with some of these issues. This helps avoid a BBC dip on axis.

[ryanbouma]

I agree on the lack of waveguide dome tweeters. Ive been looking for years. There was a time on this forum when people were very skeptical. Not sure why. I could see many drawbacks. But thankfully people are coming around to the idea. I have been meaning to try the wavecor for a long time and it'll be on my next order. Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[xmax]

I should have noted my last 2 designs (and current) use a Volt 3" soft dome, it of course allows higher and "softer"
filter alignments for the tweeter, the off axis of the big dome is much different. So listening to a tweeter with this
type of filter verses the small 2 way is like apples to oranges. That said my most popular design (like at 3rd Man)
uses a 6" and compact SB tweeter so I'm not completely alien to the concept. I think it is a combination of polar,
response and other factors.