A good tweeter to match 5" SB Acoustics Magnesium Woofers

[dcibel]

It could also have something to do with transient behavior I haven't looked at the scope yet.
You talk about cap/coil ratios around here and you are greeted with the dull lifeless eyes
of a mannequin.

To be fair, you haven't actually spoke about cap/coil ratios, just some trash talk about all the projects here that have it all wrong. So we've still no idea what you're on about. Personally, with my years of electronics experience, you could say I know a thing or 2 about caps and coils. Maybe you have some magic method to making the perfect speaker, but we'll never know, it seems you are content to spit in people's faces and then expect them to ask you for advice. I suppose my dull lifeless mannequin eyes aught to be moving on for the 3rd or 4th time now... to listen to my awful distortion ridden speakers ;)

[Wolf]

The ratio of cap to coil is simply known as Q of the xover.
This is neither something new or something that is a rule of thumb unless you a actually calculate it. For example, LR is 0.5, and BW is 0.707, but in terms of FR, it might require a different Q to achieve the roll-off you desire. The ratio of Q is really only useful in ideal textbook situations.

Later,
Wolf

[dlr]

Think about it. If at 4 db lower levels it sounds bad compared to the same design without the tweeter bump and the woofer equed to fill, its not distortion 9tweeter isn't playing any louder). IME after zillion of xovers over 30 yrs, its the dispersion.

I don't recall him having made any comments related to dispersion, something that I seriously would expect Jeff to have taken into account during design.

There's an issue that has not been discussed at all that is critical in all of this discussion. The argument made was that placing a resistor after a crossover (2nd order electrical only being considered) was not just problematic, but to be avoided in all cases. The measurements shown were for precisely that (simply sticking a rresistor into the XO) and used for the negative claims made. The one thing left out entirely is that any designer with reasonable ability would never do that, ever. The measurements shown are, in essence, apples to oranges. I have tried various resistor placements over the years and have found some situations where having it after was a benefit. However, it was NOT by simply sticking a resistor here or there. The crossover in toto was then fully optimized to take the resistance into account as I suspect everyone here would do. Dave, would you ever simply stick a resistor in a crossover, anywhere, without then fully optimizing the crossover, even if only the highpass?

If this type of comparison is to be made as it has, then the measurements for accurate comparison can only be relevant with "all else being equal" or as best as can be done. That is, add the resistor then optimize, otherwise you have two very different driver responses.

I don't agree that he has been treated unfairly considering his early posts such as:

I would steer clear of the Sopranos design that tweeter can sound so much better with a good crossover design.

Just guessing looking at the filter the tweeter would be struggling with the low high-pass frequency and slope made worse by the resistor "pad" without a shunt. I would be happy to prove it to you.

A comment to Jeff:

Hopefully you didn't make the same mistake for those designs, yikes...

Then as part of his proof, he makes this statement:

The truth as usual shows up in the phase response.

He also has something of a fixation on the tweeter having an Fs of 960Hz and crossing below 2K which as you know is a holdover admonition no longer relevant given the availability of crossover software. The interaction of the crossover at Fs is easily handled, one way or another. There's no consideration of the intended system usage either, in this case, a small bookshelf, not a high power stand mount. In fact, that low crossover Fc Jeff used is to be commended since as a bookshelf the listener may be quite a bit off-axis, so a low crossover Fc of a small, low power bookshelf would be highly recommended. For dispersion characteristics. By someone who takes all factors into account, that is.

He judges the sound of a system which he admits he has not heard based on his opinions about design. He has exhibited a bit of a superiority complex as well and not in just this discussion. IMO has has yet to prove his generalized contentions.

dlr

p.s. Maybe the best description of his attitude is condescension.

[craigk]

It could also have something to do with transient behavior I haven't looked at the scope yet.
You talk about cap/coil ratios around here and you are greeted with the dull lifeless eyes
of a mannequin.

Please explain this ratio and poi nt me in the direction where I can read about it. I am not sure how you do this since every tweeter os different and the cross over points are infinite with all the different roll offs. Maybe there is a generic rule ?

[xmax]

Think about it. If at 4 db lower levels it sounds bad compared to the same design without the tweeter bump and the woofer equed to fill, its not distortion 9tweeter isn't playing any louder). IME after zillion of xovers over 30 yrs, its the dispersion.

Perhaps clarify that for the rocket scientist around here.

[DDF]

The only reason I brought it up was because I was very happy the first time I tried something like that, I was very happy
with the measured results and kept trying to talk myself into it sounding good but it did just not. With a beautiful 4"
woofer why even think about running the tweeter that low! Also Brian at Madisound always grounds me with his
blunt truth. I tried pulling a fast one with the TW29B and he was kind enough to remind me I had my clown shoes on.

Think about it. If at 4 db lower levels it sounds bad compared to the same design without the tweeter bump and the woofer equed to fill, its not distortion 9tweeter isn't playing any louder). IME after zillion of xovers over 30 yrs, its the dispersion.

[xmax]

It could also have something to do with transient behavior I haven't looked at the scope yet.
You talk about cap/coil ratios around here and you are greeted with the dull lifeless eyes
of a mannequin.

[xmax]

The only reason I brought it up was because I was very happy the first time I tried something like that, I was very happy
with the measured results and kept trying to talk myself into it sounding good but it did just not. With a beautiful 4"
woofer why even think about running the tweeter that low! Also Brian at Madisound always grounds me with his
blunt truth. I tried pulling a fast one with the TW29B and he was kind enough to remind me I had my clown shoes on.

[DDF]

You are 100% right, I was wrong, you guys should go about your buisness. If I ever have time to prove to you what I hear from this
type of filter/pad I will let you know. In the mean time please keep crossing tweeters over so close to the Fs not mindful of the transfer function.

Anybody interested in my findings with the Viawave etc, you know how to find me.

I think you've been treated poorly and unfailry and dealt with the situation with good humour.

FWIW I haven't heard the speaker in question, but for my own designs, such a tweeter filter with such a rise at knee gives a good line on a graph at one point in space because it equalizes for diffraction at one point in space. However IME on my speakers it dumps too much energy into the room at those frequencies, especially given the tweeter has such wide dispersion in that range.

In a large room (such as those at the DIY meets where most people get to share designs) it may not be so audible because the reflection delay is so great, but in a small room IME on my experiments with similar drivers/layouts its grating and etched.

[xmax]

Xmax, it is great that you admit you dont know how to tweak the gate time. Shows maybe you're not as arrogant as you have appeared to be. But to be perfectly fair and honest, if you don't know how to do that, you don't know how to measure a speaker. The gate/window time is pretty much the single most important setup issue with any speaker measurement. IMO its more important that drive voltage, microphone type, software type, amplifier, etc. The only thing more important would be getting the distance from reflections as far as possible and mic distance. Which those things actually dictate the gate time, which is why they are more important. I am with the others that disagree with you about how a resistor makes distortion rise and such. At this point it is clear you have not proven anything despite the comparison graph you posted, which was not very helpful even before we knew it was possibly not reflection free. Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

You are 100% right, I was wrong, you guys should go about your buisness. If I ever have time to prove to you what I hear from this
type of filter/pad I will let you know. In the mean time please keep crossing tweeters over so close to the Fs not mindful of the transfer function.

Anybody interested in my findings with the Viawave etc, you know how to find me.

[xmax]

I have used the carbon fiber cone versions built on the same platform and they are incredible!
These seem every bit as good if not better. I will have some soon. Too bad I don't know how to measure
speakers...

[Waboo]

I was thinking maybe they're a pretty nice and reasonably priced midbass without stepping up to the Satori. I've been away from speaker building for quite a few years now and this new line has just kinda caught my eye. I don't know, maybe it's the white cone.

[xmax]

Looks like they just showed up today on the Madisound site, in both 4 and 8 ohm.

Nice!

[Waboo]

Anyone know when the 6" versions will show up? Madisound has been showing the 5" and 8" on their site for maybe a month now, but not the 6".

Looks like they just showed up today on the Madisound site, in both 4 and 8 ohm.

[Kornbread]

Could you show us what the impulse response looked like?