Looking for guidance: first build (kit only)

[rs_toronto]

Big hello to everyone from Toronto, Canada!

TL;DR: newbie looking for a confirmation that Amiga Kit is going to be a step up from current Mission floor-standing speaker, a gentle push over the edge to place an order.

Details:
I’ve read and searched the forum for some time now, but can’t seem to come across an answer (perhaps, the search function on the phone is a bit limited?) — so I’ve decided to post instead.

I’m a newbie, looking to build a set of speakers. I’m only interested in kits with pre-cut cabinets as I don’t have the tools to do the core ‘woodworking’.

Ultimate objective: build something that would sound *substantially* better than my current speakers (Mission M34i - floor-standing MTM).

I could imagine that one could say: get a Solstice kit and never look back. However, I’m unable to spend C$1.5K (US$1.2K including delivery to Canada) of the family budget on DIY speakers without a ‘proof of concept’ that DIY speakers are demonstrably better than the store speakers (and that I actually can finish them to the level that is not embarrassing to have in the living room).

Therefore, a near term objective: build a set of DIY speakers that is *noticeably* better than my current Mission floor-standing set without too much headache. (Additional bonus — can repurpose speakers for home theatre)

It appears that my options are as follows:
1. US$100-$130 + delivery —> a pair of C-Note or Overnight Sensations — bookshelf speakers (Classix appears to be out of stock with unknown end date), OR
2. US$320-$370 + delivery (pair) — Samba (bookshelf) or Amiga (floor-standing).

I come with full expectations that Amiga will not be as good as Solstice (1 driver at Solstice costs more than the whole Amiga speaker kit).

So, to boil down the questions:
1. Will C-Note/Overnight Sensations deliver *noticeably* better sound than my current speakers?
2. Will Amiga/Samba “feel” as a step-up from my current speakers (and ~3 times better than C-Note/OS)?

“Better” is quite subjective, let me substantiate this a little. Looking for higher clarity/realism from speakers. Currently the voice does not separate from the speakers. There is no illusion that the instruments are physically present. Yes, you know that the speakers are here and playing. But overall it feels that I’m listening through a towel. As soon as there is more than a couple of instruments, the sounds/instruments are all mushed. Not looking for a loud speaker (no pun intended), but for a detailed sound that would allow to separate instruments and say “wow, I have not heard this before”. Yes, tried different speaker placement/amp calibration. Amp/speaker calibration helped a bit (Marantz functionality).

Music preferences: light jazz (Melody Gardot, Diana Krall, etc), Dire Straits, Pink Floyd, some country (Brad Paisley). My better half will play movies/pop.

Amp/Sources: Marantz SR5006 (currently bi-amp to Mission speakers) - processing via its own DAC, playing CD or Apple lossless via AirPlay.

Many thanks for reading thus far and for your help!

--Roman

[Chris Roemer]

I'd say you're looking for the Amiga, or the Classix II.

[Geoff Millar]

Hello from Oz

As luck would have it, a niece of ours has the Missions, albeit as the front pair in a 5.1 system.

I have to say that our main speakers, Curt Campbell's Slapshot MTMs, sound more detailed, have more bass response, plus more detailed mid range than the Missions. They feature Dayton RS180Ps (the Amigas have the aluminium version) and Morel CAT378 tweeters. So not the Amigas, but similar quality and woofer - with the proviso that I'm going by reviews as I've not heard the Amigas.

Listening is a mix of pop/rock, classical, jazz and 'good' music in a large living room with high ceilings.

How big is your room? Obviously a MTM will put out more DB than a TM so you want to be sure that the Amiga will have enough 'oomph' for your space. According to Mr Carmody, the speakers are good for about 95DB - about the same as being near a four stroke lawnmower. Should be enough?

I haven't heard the C Notes or the ONS, but I would think the Amigas will put out a bigger and more detailed sound. The Sambas should sound similar, and the 4 ohm 180P should sound as good as the 8 ohm, but you will have the added $$ of needing to put the speakers on stands, perhaps.

Hope this helps

Geoff

[djg]

Can you make your own cabinets including nice round rebated driver holes, or do you need a kit with a machined baffle and flat pack? Are you set on a tower type or could you do stands? I can point you to other sources for really good quality kits, but actually there are not that many kits with a tower flat pack.

Can your Marantz handle 4 ohm load?

[skatz]

Not sure how much this will help you, but you can listen to my Solstice kit build on YouTube, just search under the kit name. But understand that there are several layers of technology in the final result, and how that affects the sound you get online, who really knows?
I know I really like my set.

[skatz]

In fact, it looks like quite a few designs can be "auditioned" on You Tube.

[DanP]

The only thing a YouTube audition is good for is to detect a glaring peak in the response and even then, only if you are confident that all the other steps between you and the speaker are not responsible for the peak.

I've never heard the Amigas, but I've also never heard a Paul Carmody design I didn't like and the Dayton RS series remains one of the best driver values available, so I'd venture to say these would outperform your Missions. I don't think the C-notes or ONS will.

Dan

[civit]

I agree with DanP. Amigas would be a good first build; I would expect them to be much better than the C notes and noticeably better than the OS MTM. The drivers in all these kits are very good for the money.
The next notch up from that if you don't want to go for the solstice (which is also a very good value) would be the kits from DIYSOUNDGROUP - Ares, Apollo and so on. These kits come with the front baffle and then you buy the rest of the box separately (see flat pack section). I would recommend making the best 6.5/7" stand mount you can and then adding a subwoofer later if you wish.

I guess my recommendation ultimately is for the Samba.

[Geoff Millar]

Just to add to the comments above, the RS180Ps (8 ohm version) sound very, very good and look great, which is a plus if you're not going to use a grille. The RS180-8 also looks cool.

We couldn't believe the detail we got from the Slapshots compared to our old speakers, in particular, cymbals and violin harmonics really come across well. We kept hearing things we'd never noticed before. The RS180P midrange is honestly the most natural I've heard outside of commercial speakers which cost three or four times more.

Vocals are reproduced beautifully, for example, Sarah McLachlan's "Angel" and Jennifer Warnes' "Invitation to the Blues", which I use for test tracks, sound like they're in the room. More natural-sounding than the Missions to my ears. For bass, I use The Band's "Up on Cripple Creek", which has a combination of deep bass and drums which severely test the quality of the woofer, and the Daytons shine there too. No reason to expect the aluminium version to be any different in that respect.

Just be aware that 'better' speakers may show up poor recording/mixing and some music is not going to sound that much 'better' on your new speakers, whatever they are. Taking some examples, my Hendrix Live LA Forum 1970 bootleg and Dylan Basement Tapes sound 'better' on our Classix II speakers as the Classix tend not to emphasise the drawbacks of the recordings.

I expect the Amigas and Sambas are very accurate and will reveal what's on the source recording.

Mr Carmody comments that you won't need a sub with the Amigas as the F3 is (from memory) under 40Hz.

Good luck with your selection

Geoff

[Psycoacoustics]

How are you "Bi-amping" with a 7.1 receiver? A quick look at the specs for the Marantz tells me 100 WPC with ONLY 2 channels driven. If your using more than 2 of the channels to bi-amp your feeding the total speaker with less power. I think?

When you say, "The voice does not separate from the speakers" it makes me think there is a phase issue. If your not getting a solid center image in stereo you may want to insure that + from the amp is going to + on the speakers.

What is your source? I'm not familiar with Apple lossless via airplay. I too use Apple lossless but that's for files I've ripped into the computer for my iPad and iPod and generally they sound quite good.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from building new speakers. I just worry that if something 'Upstream" from the speakers may be causing you trouble,,,,,, new speakers won't help!

Good luck! Mark

[Geoff Millar]

How are you "Bi-amping" with a 7.1 receiver? A quick look at the specs for the Marantz tells me 100 WPC with ONLY 2 channels driven. If your using more than 2 of the channels to bi-amp your feeding the total speaker with less power. I think?

When you say, "The voice does not separate from the speakers" it makes me think there is a phase issue. If your not getting a solid center image in stereo you may want to insure that + from the amp is going to + on the speakers.

What is your source? I'm not familiar with Apple lossless via airplay. I too use Apple lossless but that's for files I've ripped into the computer for my iPad and iPod and generally they sound quite good.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from building new speakers. I just worry that if something 'Upstream" from the speakers may be causing you trouble,,,,,, new speakers won't help!

Good luck! Mark

+1, great idea to check the speaker phase, I hadn't thought of that

Geoff

[Carbon13]

I'm in mississauga if you want to hear the OS TMMs and the classixIIs. Just pm me.

[skatz]

The only thing a YouTube audition is good for is to detect a glaring peak in the response and even then, only if you are confident that all the other steps between you and the speaker are not responsible for the peak.

Dan

I certainly agree with this, that's what I meant when I said that there is a lot of technology between the listener and the music. Still I think you can discern more than just a bad peak.

[Drjay]

Obviously, I'm a big fan of DIY speakers, but my concern is similar to that of Psychoacoustics. Your Missions have uniformly very good reviews and should sound a lot better than your description of them. Before you jump into the DIY waters and experience disappointment, it would be worthwhile to try to see if you can get a substantial improvement from the Missions. In addition to phasing, I would experiment with room placement, check to be sure all drivers are outputting sound, make sure the bi-wire jumpers are clean and tight and try them both with and without the supplied foam plugs for the ports. I well could be wrong here, but if the many glowing reports on the Missions are accurate, I doubt you would hear a substantial improvement over the missions with most affordable DIY kits and certainly not the C notes or Overnight Sensations.
Best,
Jay

[scottvalentin]

One other item to think about regarding imaging and clarity (voice and instrument separation) are the room acoustics. If you have a hard surface floor (hardwood or tile) and walls and ceiling with no treatments, these reflections will take away from both clarity and imaging. Another good investment would be some sound treatment in the room.

Now, since I love me some DIY speakers, I would vote Amigas.