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Desperately seeking the right speakers for DIY bluetooth speaker

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  • SentinelAeon
    replied
    Could actualy go as high as 15L. So PA165-8 is giving me 92.9dB at 8 ohms for under 30$ and in 15L box will go down to 65Hz. Is this the best option ? I remember someone offering me another speaker but i cant find it

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  • SentinelAeon
    replied
    Alright i got a heads up from that guy that wants a louder speaker. I got a new budget and new size. So size limit is 12L. I can use about 40€ for woofer and tweeter. I will use either 1x100W or 1x50W amplifier, obviously crossover will be made. I am leaning towards 1x50W because otherwise adding enough batteries will move the cost up a lot. I told him i can make the speaker about 2x louder than the last one. Remember, the last speaker was Dayton TCP115 8 ohm version that is 81.9dB at 8 ohms. And a cheap 10W 4 dollar tweeter from aliexpress. Maybe 2x the power is a bit much, but maybe 1.75x louder can be done (i got that value simply by comparing dB of the woofer ... i found 8ohm woofers that are near or over 90dB).

    So what would be a good recomendation here ? I was thinking of using Dayton Audio ND16FA-6 as the tweeter, which is under 10€, which leaves me a nice 30€ for the woofer part.

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  • SentinelAeon
    replied
    So far i dont have much information but i have 3 orders that i have to make. 2 are for home speakers, but the third one is that loud big bluetooth speaker.

    About the size, i will have to ask him. That will be very important. Price is also important, last time he bought my speaker for 60€, maybe this time we could go to 80 or even 100€. The power is not an issue, right now i use 2x50W amp and plan to move to 1x50 or 1x100W mono because i only use 2 speakers in each setup (obviously for price reasons, 1 woofer and 1 tweeter vs 2 woofers and 2 tweeters). Batteries arent an issue also. Right now i used 6S batteries and for more expensive packs i might even use 6S2P. Sadly its all down to money in the end - i simply cannot make miracles when i am so limited by money. As it is, this speaker building is almost a charity from my side.

    As far as i understood him, he wants the louder speaker for his parties, not to be carried in backpack like i do. So i am thinking, maybe even 10L or more ? His parties as far as i understood are around his house. He has the smaller 3L speaker already, that one he can carry in backpack. So maybe he wants this one only for home parties - then size isnt a limit. So maybe i could put in some larger, even 6" speaker with good sensitivity and F3 around 65Hz is just fine. Then i will have to find something also for mids and highs, my 4$ tweeter from aliexpress is fine with dayton tcp115, but might be to weak with a larger 6" woofer.

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  • LOUT
    replied
    Do you know about how large you'll be able to go before it's too big? A bigger box will work better for the more efficient speakers or work better for multiple cheap speakers working together.

    Will these still be battery-powered and limited by that for how much wattage they can give? If you're limited to portable battery power which will probably limit them to around 10watts or less no matter how much that amp is capable of pushing, then efficiency will matter even more than Xmax and wattage handling...combined with these not needing to reach very low, this might make it better to look at "mid-woofers" instead of small subwoofers because the midwoofers will usually be louder at low wattage.

    For example; if you're limited to less than 10watts at 4ohms from the battery (I think this is from less than 9volts but I could easily be wrong) and aiming for 60-70hz F3 for under $30 in a box as large as 12liters you could use a $20-25 PA165-8 which wouldn't pass 2mm xmax until under 60hz at this low power (I think even 10hz wouldn't pass 6mm). It'd be a big box and a silly application for this speaker, but it would be one of the loudest and cheapest options possible for a low-watt portable. A slightly less silly version might be a pair of PC105-8 wired in parallel for 4ohm which would get a similar loudness and bass depth in a 12liter box for a couple extra dollars spent...the main advantage being you can technically use them as a fullrange without a tweeter and only very simple crossover (or DPS if your portable amp supports it) though a dedicated tweeter+crossover should always sound better and spread the highs wider. If you did use a pair for fullrange then it'd make more sense to use separate 4ohm versions wired for stereo instead of wiring two 8ohms together to work as a mono speaker.

    That only makes sense if you're power-limited though. If your power-supply and amp working together can push closer to 25-50watts per side, then Xmax and headroom will matter more. If you have that kind of power, then speakers with more low-end headroom should be able to match or beat the PA and PC models' limited low-end. A pair of TCP115-8 wired parallel for 4ohm mono in a 5liter box should reach 60-65hz F3 and be able to get even louder than the PA or PC speakers if you can push them with 40-50watts.

    It kind of matters mostly on what is constraining the build most; size limits or wattage limits. Do you know about how large these are okay to get? What kind of power-supply or battery pack will the amp be using?
    It might also help if you happen to have a price limit for all the speakers plus crossover parts in mind. It sounds like $30 for woofers, but if there's a little extra being reserved for tweeters and crossover, that extra might work toward a louder fullrange or allow for a cheaper but still good tweeter.

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  • SentinelAeon
    replied
    I have some news and will once again be happy for your help.

    First, i built 2 speakers with Dayton TCP115 8 ohm. One amplifier was 2x25W, the other 2x50W. Putting Dayton into a box does indeed increase its volume like 10 fold (compared to full range which sounds the same loud when outside the box). The bass is awesome on both units, its made people look with open mouth, being amazed how much bass can come from 3L box.


    Now the guy to who i sold the 2x25W with dayton and tweeter replied to me, i wanted him to tell me what he likes and what he would improve on the speaker. 1 very big point he made is, he said he would make it louder (it appears he uses it outside where he wants the speaker to cover more area). The speaker is insane loud inside, but outside with people talking/yelling, i understand u can crave more.

    I just got my Dayton TCP115 4 ohm and compared to TCP115 8 ohm it will give me about 5dB more (part of it is due to getting more power compared to 8 ohm version and part of it is simply that the 4 ohm verson is about 2dB more sensitive per 1W). This should give me some more volume. The next thing i can do is make a bigger box. I think he doesnt care about how big it is. So if i make a bigger box and raise resonant frequency, i will have same F3 value but at frequencies 60-100Hz i will have up to 5dB or more boost. I know optimal is linear frequency line, but i think he cares about loudness more. The other option is simply using some other more sensitive speaker, with obviously higher resonant frequency, but if i make a bigger box for them, i can still get low F3 and higher sensitivity will mean higher volume.

    Dayton TCP115 is very cheap for what it gives. Awesome speaker. But if i want some speaker with higher sensitivity and less bass (compensating with bigger box), what speakers would you suggest ? Some members suggested dayton audio DA115 and dayton audio DSA115. I checked both speakers but sadly, they are twice the price of TCP115 and have about the same sensitivity as it. I guess i could increase the budget of the woofer to 30$ or 30€ (dayton TCP115 is only about 14€). So this is the woofer part and i will be happy to get some input. I think F3 of 70 or 60Hz would be perfectly fine.

    Now the other part. On the speaker i sold, i used some 10W tweeter, crossed at 2800Hz. Now i am thinking of going with visaton FRS 8M. The speaker is insane loud, i use it in my old speaker. And also i was thinking of calling the visaton at 200Hz (to prevent distortion at high volume due to low frequency) instead of 2800Hz. Now obviously, in normal speaker this would be very wrong, since frequencies from 200 - 3000Hz will be covered by both woofer and "tweeter". This is a big no no in usual build, but here, loudness is more important than quality, this guy that bought it from me, uses it for parties where people drink and after a few beers you just want to dance to a loud music, u dont sit and listen to Mozard, thinking, wow, i really like how the violin sounds. So what do you think about that ? Maybe some speaker is even more sensitive than visaton frs 8M, though i doubt it costs as little as visaton.

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  • Chris Roemer
    replied
    PM'd you

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  • SentinelAeon
    replied
    I just wanted to let you know that i tested the 8 ohm daytons in a 2.3L enclosure and they do indeed pack a punch. So the 4 ohm version, that will give me about 5dB more will be a great great speaker for my needs.

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  • SentinelAeon
    replied
    I actualy went ahead and found a program that is compatible with some hi-fi site that has specs for speakers. U simply download the specs and import them into a program. How simple !!! And this is what i get in a 5 liter box. I could also make it smaller but since person for who the speaker is said size is of no matter, i will rather go bigger. And i am thinking that the box of full range will be so small i dont even need to substract, since this speakers performs great even in like 2 liter box.

    I learned some new things btw. First, as i increase the size of the enclosure, the bass under 100Hz actualy gets louder. Also, if i increase the resonant frequency of box (with the port dimension) i also increase loudness but the offset is that woofer will go less load. I decided i will actualy make different size ports and compare them and try to see if i can spot the difference. I am really having high hopes for this daytons, if they play as intended it would be awesome for more speakers to make, they work great in very small enclosure so i am thinking it would be great to put dayton on left channel and tweeter on right channel to make compact bass that will blow JBL away.

    Right now i am in dire need of capacitors. Stores are closed and all i got are capacitors from various electronic devices like motherboards, PSUs, etc. And i dont think i can find a 5 or 10uF capacitor there. Good thing is i have decide to measure capacitance so i will try to find them.

    I am still sad though that daytons will draw "only" 24W as opossed to 57W the other speaker draws. Sure battery will run longer and difference between 24W and 57W is only a little more than 3dB. Still, would be good to have a little headroom for the moments where u only need very loud music for like 1 hour. I should be getting daytons in a week and will let you know how it goes. I always thought though that impedance is what says how much power will be drawn. So to me the fact that 3 ohm speaker draws 57W and 4 ohm speaker is supposed to take 24W doesnt make any sense. I know for a fact my amp can go over 50W on 1 channel, 57W was the max. So as far as i know, the dayton should go to 50W also

    I also checked the PC105-4 and they might also be an interesting choice, if the daytons turn out to be to quiet. 64Hz in 0.21ft^3 enclosure doesnt sound bad at all. Its funny, up till now i only used passive radiators without calculating or anything. Now it looks like ported is the way to go since i got all the data. I will only use passive radiators for really small compact speakers where port doesnt make any sense.

    Thank you for all your help so far, you dont know how much it helps to have a nice person helping you in the field where you basicly know nothing and have to learn from scratch.
    Attached Files

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  • LOUT
    replied
    If the Dayton TCP115-8 is only drawing 10watts, assuming there isn't something strange causing that, then I think you can expect the TCP115-4 to draw at least 24watts in the same situation.
    I've heard that these little classD amps don't really work like the older A/B amps with 4ohm and 8ohm loads like this, so that might also be part of what's going on. Maybe the amp is just much more efficient when given 4ohm loads and loses efficiency quite fast as impedance goes up rather than losing it linearly.?

    I've mostly been using the free program VituixCAD. It has both a frequency/crossover sim and a decent box sim. I saw a youtube video from KirbyMeetsAudio a year or more ago explaining crossover design as part of a 5step speaker building video series (I think) and he talked about the program while giving some instructions for using it and a link in the video description which is where I grabbed it from.
    I've also tried WinISD for some box sim stuff, but it always seemed a little glitchy on my computer for some reason even after uninstall/reinstall...plus VituixCAD seemed to have most of the same cab design options (though WinISD also has port air velocity and might have some extra box options that Vituix doesn't). I like that Vituix shows most/all of the important graphs simultaneously so you can instantly see what changes you make do to everything at once without needing to switch through different screens.
    I think many of the free programs are probably quite good, it's just the kind of thing where you get used to using something and the others appear too strange and different unless you're used to switching between a bunch of different ones...like switching operating systems on your computer or phone.

    If you're building both the TCP and the little fullrange inside the same overall box (with the little fullrange sealed into its own smaller section, which IS a good plan in that situation like you said), then you'll need to subtract the little box's external volume/size from the big box's internal size...since the little box inside the big one will obviously be taking up some space and not letting the bigger Dayton use that space (the whole point is sealing the little speaker away from the larger one's pressure afterall).
    Or if that's written dumb, yes you'll just use the actual air-space/volume that the Dayton gets to interact with...don't count any extra space that's sealed away where the Dayton can't use it.

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  • SentinelAeon
    replied
    Thank you for your answers. Yes, my daytons are 8 ohm. I ordered 4 ohm version. I calculated 3dB from half the impedance and 1.9dB from difference in sensitivity between the speakers. So that is basicly 5dB and might just be enough to make that great speaker usable.

    Btw still i dont know why daytons are drawing so little power. They are drawing about 10W at my amp that is 2x50W. So lets say that means 20W when i use 4 ohm version. It is still only 20W. When i hooked up 3" woofer/full range speakers i got from aliexpress, their impedance is 3 ohm. And at max, they were drawing a whooping 57W. So i do not understand it. The test was same for both speakers. First i tried some deep bass sound and then some normal techno song. I also tried 50Hz sound. The little aliexpress woofer draw almost 3 times more power than the daytons. Which is a shame, i would love to push daytons to the limit and obviously amp can handle that power but daytons just arent taking it.

    Btw i will be soon making another speaker, wooden this time and it doesnt have to be small. On left channel i will be using Dayton TCP115 4 ohm and on right channel some nice full range like visaton FRS 8. I saw daytons produce very nice bass in a relatively small ported enclosure. I need a program or an online app with which i will calculate all the parameters of the speaker. Do you know of any nice free app that already has Dayton TCP115 specs in ? If not, i will enter them manualy, thats ok. Also, i will encase the full range into its own small enclosure, just to make sure the mighty Dayton woofer doesnt blow it out. How will that enclosure be put into calculation ? When calculating volume for daytons, will i need to subtract the volume of full range enclosure or not ?

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  • LOUT
    replied
    I thought your current Dayton was the TCP115-4, it sounds like it must be the TCP115-8 instead (the 8 at the end means 8ohm VS 4ohm) so I think yours is around 4-5db quieter at 2.83v...about 3-4db lost from the the higher ohm/resistance (unless you've got a really beefy little amp pushing them where you'll have enough power to hit their limit either way) and another ~1db simply because the 4ohm version happens to be a little more sensitive overall between those two for whatever reason.
    It looks like you could expect the 4ohm version to be a decent ways louder, and something like the PC105-4 to be even louder albeit much less deep bass from a small box 82db VS 87db VS 90db.

    I'm guessing you're measuring the ohms with a simple meter that reads DC resistance? The speakers actual impedance will change (typically a little higher with some spikes that go much higher) depending on what AC current or sound frequency the amp is trying to give them at the time...DC measurement usually gives the lowest impedance at a frequency that's lower than you'll ever hear the speaker play, so I'm guessing the sealed 5.5ohm speaker might dip lower than your reading and lower than half of the Dayton at the frequencies you were playing when looking at the amp's wattage draw?


    In your math at the end there, the extra 3db comes from the 4ohm version drawing 2X more power from the amp at 2.83v....so don't count that twice. Still, around 5db isn't bad at all for the price and how deep that thing can reach in such a tiny box.

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  • SentinelAeon
    replied
    Well i just tested the daytons. I bought a cheap 5.1 system and got a small sealed woofer with it. It had good bass, speaker says 15W. I measured the speaker and its 5.5 ohm, while dayton is 7.8 ohm. Now get this:

    1) The 5.5 ohm speaker from woofer 4" plays a lot louder than dayton and it draws a total of 25W at maximum
    2) the 7.8 ohm dayton 115 4" speaker (8 ohm) draws maximum of 10W.

    Now i dont get this. Lets say the woofer speaker is 4 ohm and dayton is 8 ohm. Wouldnt dayton by this calculation draw half the power of the 4 ohm speaker and that would be exactly 12.5W ? Even though 4 vs 8 difference ... thats only 3dB because double the power. And loudness was a lot more then 25% or so. And bass is more or less same with both drivers. For some reason my phone will show both with more or less same loudness but that certainly isnt the case, you can hear the other one a lot louder. My simple dB meter app will show dayton max at 65dB and the other one at 75dB.

    I am really interested how much i would get from 4 ohm dayton. Also its interesting i get 10W per channel with 8 ohm daytons, while my amp says 38W per channel when 8 ohm and 50W when 4 ohm. When i tried some other 3" drivers from aliexpress that are 3 ohm, i managed to get a whooping 57W per channel

    Also looking at online sheet, i see 4 ohm 115 dayton is 86.8dB and 8 ohm 115 dayton is 81.9. Ok so to compare them, we substract 3dB (double impedance) from 4 ohm dayton and get 83.8dB, which is better then 81.9 from 8 ohm one. Add in double the power because its lower impedance, maybe that will really sound louder. I need to order a pack of 4 ohm ones and test it

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  • SentinelAeon
    replied
    I still havent tested the cheap daytons, anyone has any idea how i can make cheap enclosure just to test them ? Also i see daytons go very low. like 50Hz. I would gladly trade that for something with 3dB higher sensitivity and 70Hz But need to do more tests.

    I still cant get my head around how they manage to get such bass from such small speaker and such small enclosure. I mean this is really really really small enclosure yet it goes deep. I know they have a huge team of sound engineers working on it, calculating, etc. But still makes me mad that i cant do same as them even with 3 times bigger enclosure and speaker:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54_Q...ature=emb_logo

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  • SentinelAeon
    replied
    I live in slovenia. I will check the speakers out

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  • LOUT
    commented on 's reply
    I should probably be doing a search right now instead of asking, but is there something like a "DATS and/or general measurement volunteers listed by state" thread?
    I'd gladly put on a mask and gloves to high-five a semi local speaker nerd...or toss some fastfood/beer money their way for the service.
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