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  • #46
    Originally posted by nigelb View Post
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ID:	1449980 I just finished these for a friend. They are a modified CSS P215. I turned them into a floor stander by altering the dimensions and packing in some bracing, baffle width kept the same. The printed crossover boards that came with it made the soldering very easy for anyone who isn't used to assembling crossovers. The bottom part odf the cabinet is hollow and could be filled with kitty litter, however I made the bases out of cold rolled steel (14 lbs each !), painted with Rustoleum rattle can. Rolling the side veneer was easier than I thought using 10ml paper-backed and Heatlock iron on glue.
    How do they sound? Well I won't comment personally except to say they are very good, not just for the money. My friend told me that in the two weeks they've had them the whole family have been listening every night to all the music they didn't bother playing any more. He also told me it was the best gift he'd ever received. So, totally worth it IMHO.
    Thanks for the info! I'll be your friend if you wanted to build me a pair 😜

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    • #47
      Originally posted by fpitas View Post

      Yes. And there's nothing wrong with those CSS Criton 2tds you're looking at. But I suspect you may still play with the crossover to get what you want.
      I've built a few speaker designs, but I've never tried altering crossovers. That's outside my wheel house. It will be like when I try to adjust the front derailleur on my bicycle, should be a simple twist of a screw.. six hours later I'm fed up and taking it to the bike shop because I've royaly screwed up the shifting.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by AudioSQ View Post

        I've built a few speaker designs, but I've never tried altering crossovers. That's outside my wheel house. It will be like when I try to adjust the front derailleur on my bicycle, should be a simple twist of a screw.. six hours later I'm fed up and taking it to the bike shop because I've royaly screwed up the shifting.
        Lol. Well, people here will certainly give you pointers. Hopefully though, they'll be exactly how you like them.
        Francis

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        • #49
          I know that there are alot of disparaging comments made about using eq, but I think that any tool that performs a job can be useful. Your room, as well as your ears, are going to determine how any speaker will sound. Don't be afraid to play around with eq settings to get what you want to hear. An in room, ruler flat response, doesn't make my ears happy. It's not that the top end is bright, but the bottom sounds thin and lean, to me. You may like a bit more on the top end, and that's perfect for you, because pleasing your own ears is the desired end result. Even if you want to build new speakers, you still could play with resistor swaps, for fun, on your Fusion's. You describe some of my own taste in treble. I don't like too laid back, at all. Details get muted, to my ears. The biggest, most consistent comment that I get when friends hear my rig, is the cleanliness and clarity, even at extreme volumes. You may tweak the Fusion's, and fall in love with them. Worth a shot. Glenn.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by AudioSQ View Post

            I've built a few speaker designs, but I've never tried altering crossovers. That's outside my wheel house. It will be like when I try to adjust the front derailleur on my bicycle, should be a simple twist of a screw.. six hours later I'm fed up and taking it to the bike shop because I've royaly screwed up the shifting.
            Yea, but 90% or more of speaker SYSTEM design is the crossover. Now if you start with a quality system that is reasonably flat, then a touch of EQ can dial in for your room.

            If you have not learned to measure you in-room response, you are working blind. You don't know what needs to be fixed.

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            • #51
              What are y'alls thoughts on fancy crossover parts? How much of a difference do they really make? The Criton has a $350 crossover upgrade. I'm guessing I could tell a difference in an A/B test, but wondering if I'd really miss it otherwise. Seems like a lot of extra money, but I don't want to always be wondering what if either.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by AudioSQ View Post
                What are y'alls thoughts on fancy crossover parts? How much of a difference do they really make? The Criton has a $350 crossover upgrade. I'm guessing I could tell a difference in an A/B test, but wondering if I'd really miss it otherwise. Seems like a lot of extra money, but I don't want to always be wondering what if either.
                There are several threads and points of view about this issue, but to me the 'law of diminishing returns' applies. To be silly, in Oz I can buy a good quality 8.2 mf film Jantzen CrossCap or PMPC Dayton cap for $10.50. I could also pay $800 (sic) for the same value 'super premium' cap: I cannot imagine that the dearer part is so much better! There are of course many options in between.

                The $10.50 film cap will last longer and sound better than a $3.50 electrolytic cap, that's money well spent.

                Good quality resistors are a much better value proposition: $2.50 for good, $4.00 for higher quality; again, money well spent and not much in the scheme of things.

                With inductors, the first thing I would do is see what the designer has specified and why: what type (i-core, P-core or air core) and gauge. For example. Paul Carmody's Classix 2.5 use an air core for the series inductor in the woofer circuit, but a cheaper i-core after the first woofer. So I'd go with his recommendations without hesitation.

                A 1.5mH wax coil 15 AWG will cost about $60 and an air core less than half that. Could I hear the difference? I doubt it.

                Geoff

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                • #53
                  Maybe, maybe if you were using a $1000 diamond tweeter and had a first generation master tape, two or three of the forum could hear the difference between a Dayton and a boutique cap if the value was the same. Another two or three may hear if one cap was at one end of the tolerance and another at the other end. That is if you still have hearing of a 20 year old that has not been damaged by ear buds, loud clubs, or firearms. Ladies more likely than guys. Iron air, gauge, magic? What matters is the DC resistance and if that was correctly accounted for in the crossover design. Resistors should be non-inductive wound. Past that, no difference at all. Of course, the designer might take the resistor inductance into account in which case that would not be a detriment.

                  I prototype with electrolytic as I can afford a box of them , and even use them in the woofer side occasionally. The stupidest thing is to see $25 cap on a $12 tweeter. Other than ego and bragging rights, no improvement. Same with fancy speaker wire, magic solder, interconnects, power plugs and everything else they can figure out how to advertise you money out of you when the money needs to go to the drivers and the design.

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                  • #54
                    That's basically how I feel. Potentially a slight bump, but probably not $350 worth and not something I would probably notice unless I A/B tested. There are a few reviews that say the upgraded xover made a huge difference, but how much of that is placebo.. I've never actually done an xover comparison so I can't really put value on my assumption.

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                    • #55
                      I'm sure you've looked at this but to share with the others offering suggestions: The base xo is all Dayton parts and the upgrade is ERSE perfect lay inductors, Mills resistors and Jantzen Superior caps. I'm sure most of the increase is for the capacitors as this is going from budget to premium and skipping a lot of options in the middle. (According to Jantzen site the Z-Superior doesn't come in a 45 uf value but if it is upgraded to a premium cap it has to be pretty expensive.) Given the capacitor values, I would think upgrading capacitors in series on the tweeter will give you the most bang for the buck. Maybe upgrade the resistors to Mills but they have gone from $4.25 to $6.67 in the last year and PE has some new precision audio grade ones (green) that look nice.

                      I don't know the details of the xo but assuming it is the 8.2 uf in series on the tweeter here are the options at PE from high price to low. I've always been surprised at the gap between the Jantzen Z-standard ($9) and Superiors ($46) where the only option in between are the Audyn Cap Plus. I have all the parts for a 5.0 setup with Statements II and went with Audyn Cap Plus, but they aren't built yet so can't comment. There are probably some other in-between options at other vendors though.

                      By the way, those crossover boards that come with the kit are pretty awesome.


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                      • #56
                        So maybe I just upgrade select parts for cheaper instead of going with their xover upgrade option?

                        Their crossover boards are hot.. but I don't know if it's better than the piece of cardboard I use that usually looks like a crossover spider web.

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                        • #57
                          When I ordered my Continuum kit from the other MI based speaker supplier, I solicited advice on capacitor brands from a forum member whose opinion I respect. His recommendations were not particularly pricey. Paying more doesn't make items automatically better. The designer of the Continuums, I recently learned from the Rick Craig Jeff Bagby tribute thread, generally used non boutique crossover parts.

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                          • #58
                            Their crossover boards are exactly as they describe: To assist in the beginner to get it hooked up correctly. Sonically, your cardboard, or my bit of hardboard, or even those where I made a PWB, no difference. Just like the caps. A Dayton film, or the most expensive boutique cap will sound the same. I would not be surprised if the only difference was the label and price.

                            If you want to send me a bunch of money, I can provide you with the very best wire for use internally, in a fancy box, suede lining and a big printed sheet with multiple superlatives in every sentence about air, purity, exact alloy makeup and every word used in a magic wire ad. Only $300 a foot. Of course, the wire will be 18 gauge zip cord as it is the best speaker cable made, just I can buy more beer.

                            Just get your set on order. Standard parts.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by AudioSQ View Post
                              So maybe I just upgrade select parts for cheaper instead of going with their xover upgrade option?

                              Their crossover boards are hot.. but I don't know if it's better than the piece of cardboard I use that usually looks like a crossover spider web.
                              For my first project I used some snazzy commercial XO boards, but thereafter I just used thin masonite: does the job just as well and you're never going to see it again.

                              However, I suppose it could be like building a model B-17 aircraft and comprehensively fitting out the interior; even if you can't see it, you know it's there.

                              Geoff

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                              • #60
                                The crossover boards for my DIYSG S2000 MTMs were so convenient, so cheap. I will always opt for them if available.

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