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  • #31
    Originally posted by tktran View Post
    [INDENT]A) if you’re going to use stands, why not make use of dead space under the speaker? Go with a tower.
    ​​​​​​+1 for this. I have 3 way towers for my mains although it is just an 8" woofer. I use them for music and general listening. I also have separate subs that kick in when the source is switched to movies.

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    • #32
      everything Bill says I agree with. But why would you build a line array in bookshelf? May as well use the space under the speaker.

      for instance - consider this.

      3 way bookshelf vs 3 way towers.

      One you place on the stand and the other you extend the baffle and go to the floor.
      why would you build the 3 way bookshelf?

      Apart from portability/transportability I can’t see a good reason.

      Comment


      • #33
        everything Bill says I agree with. But why would you build a line array in bookshelf? May as well use the space under the speaker.

        for instance - consider this.

        3 way bookshelf vs 3 way towers.

        One you place on the stand and the other you extend the baffle and go to the floor.
        why would you build the 3 way bookshelf?

        Apart from portability/transportability I can’t see a good reason.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by tktran View Post

          3 way bookshelf vs 3 way towers.

          One you place on the stand and the other you extend the baffle and go to the floor.
          why would you build the 3 way bookshelf?

          Apart from portability/transportability I can’t see a good reason.
          The current 3 way main speaker I am working on is a wall mounted "bookshelf" rather than floorstanding because there is a radiator in the way which I don't want to move. Still working on the woofer configuration but it will have at least the area of a 10" spread over multiple smaller woofers because this is what is required for clean low frequency transients at standard levels. The intention is to use 4-8 x 8-10" subs to control the room response below about 80 Hz. I have bought 4 x 8" sub drivers to get started but expect to need more after having a bit of play to find out what is what given the awkward shape of the room and being limited to practical locations. Dithering between 8" and 10" for the subs and pairing for force cancelling given a fair proportion will be in locations like on bookshelves. But if you want decent low frequency performance in the home I cannot see a practical alternative to distributed subs although this is my first attempt in a shared, awkwardly shaped, fairly small, multipurpose living space with all the practical constraints this brings. It also needs a bunch of other work as does the rest of the house, workshop and garden which is delaying the fun stuff.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by tktran View Post
            why would you build a line array in bookshelf? .
            Why indeed. That's why mine are hung on the wall.
            One you place on the stand and the other you extend the baffle and go to the floor.
            why would you build the 3 way bookshelf
            I think you've missed the point of the thread. It's not 3 way bookshelf versus 3 way floor stander, it's full rangers in one box versus separate subs and mains.
            www.billfitzmaurice.com
            www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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            • #36
              Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
              Why indeed. That's why mine are hung on the wall.
              I think you've missed the point of the thread. It's not 3 way bookshelf versus 3 way floor stander, it's full rangers in one box versus separate subs and mains.
              Actually no, I don't think he missed the point of the thread, the title of the thread is "why build towers". And per the original post, it should be assumed the original question related to a bookshelf or stand mounted speaker with a subwoofer, verses a full range "tower" speaker with no subwoofer. I agree that a better question could be "is adding a subwoofer always better", or maybe "is using external subwoofers with small speakers better than large, full range towers"... but that wasn't the original question. You kind of took this in the direction of "everyone is wrong and we should all hang PA style line arrays from the walls in our living room and use multiple subs".

              Based on the original question... it should be surmised that the majority of people think tower speakers are the speaker of choice over a standmount or a bookshelf (whether or not you choose to use a sub or subs).
              "The ability of any system to produce exceptional sound will be limited mainly by the capability of the speakers" Jim Salk
              "Audio is surely a journey full of revelations as you go" JasonP

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              • billfitzmaurice
                billfitzmaurice commented
                Editing a comment
                Being more than a bit tired of you misquoting me, even just making things up as you go along, done with you I am.

            • #37
              I should put "making a pair of 3 way speakers" on my bucket list. All my projects and never a 3 way. Got close with a 2.5 once.

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              • #38
                Originally posted by djg View Post
                I should put "making a pair of 3 way speakers" on my bucket list. All my projects and never a 3 way. Got close with a 2.5 once.
                3 way xovers are a pain. There, I said it!!!
                Francis

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                • #39
                  Here's a "3 way bookshelf" I could do, I have the flat pack already.

                  Jeez, look at that crossover.

                  https://sites.google.com/view/sehlin...ions/zirconium

                  Comment


                  • #40
                    Originally posted by mattsk8 View Post
                    … per the original post, it should be assumed the original question related to a bookshelf or stand mounted speaker with a subwoofer, verses a full range "tower" speaker with no subwoofer.
                    This is indeed the question I asked, though I don’t think Bill is off the mark with a relatively compact line array. I presume this is similar to what he’s referring to, which is much smaller than the floor-to-ceiling arrays I’ve seen: https://billfitzmaurice.info/TLAH.html

                    Originally posted by mattsk8 View Post
                    is using external subwoofers with small speakers better than large, full range towers
                    This is the question I should have asked, and more at the heart of what I was trying to understand.

                    Originally posted by mattsk8 View Post
                    Based on the original question... it should be surmised that the majority of people think tower speakers are the speaker of choice over a standmount or a bookshelf (whether or not you choose to use a sub or subs).
                    This is the conclusion I’ve drawn as well. I have yet to read Bill’s article on boundary cancellation, but I am curious to know how measurable and noticeable the cancellation effects are in my own room, and more significantly, how much their effects may sway my future design decisions based on all the other factors mentioned in this thread.

                    Comment


                    • djg
                      djg commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I had tower L/R speakers for years. Not big woofer 3 ways but big enough. I ditched them and went real small for a while, now I'm midsize with 5 1/4" MTMs, stand mounted.

                      If you want a pair of big woofer towers, build some. Build a sub or two also and add the subs in for the dinosaurs HT vs stereo music. See what you think with your ears in your room with your media and electronics. Just my opinion.

                  • #41
                    For non-home theater most people probably use a tower or even stand mounted speakers without subwoofer due to aesthetics and/or limited space. And as many have stated, in the real world these can sound just fine.

                    In theory, and sometimes in reality, the room effects and listening position are going to create problems that only separate sub (and maybe multiples) can address.

                    For serious home theater a separate sub or subs is more likely going to be needed because the optimal placement is almost never the same as where you will place the L/R mains.

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                    • #42
                      Here's some towers I could appreciate. The designer still recommends subwoofer(s) with these.

                      These are the answer to "Why build towers?".

                      Click image for larger version  Name:	diysg titans.jpg Views:	0 Size:	166.1 KB ID:	1478612

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                      • #43
                        Originally posted by djg View Post
                        Here's some towers I could appreciate. The designer still recommends subwoofer(s) with these.

                        These are the answer to "Why build towers?".

                        Click image for larger version Name:	diysg titans.jpg Views:	0 Size:	166.1 KB ID:	1478612
                        People with huge horn speakers are crazy. Ask me how I know
                        Francis

                        Comment


                        • #44
                          Originally posted by JonathanPenner View Post

                          This is indeed the question I asked, though I don’t think Bill is off the mark with a relatively compact line array. I presume this is similar to what he’s referring to, which is much smaller than the floor-to-ceiling arrays I’ve seen: https://billfitzmaurice.info/TLAH.html



                          This is the question I should have asked, and more at the heart of what I was trying to understand.



                          This is the conclusion I’ve drawn as well. I have yet to read Bill’s article on boundary cancellation, but I am curious to know how measurable and noticeable the cancellation effects are in my own room, and more significantly, how much their effects may sway my future design decisions based on all the other factors mentioned in this thread.
                          I apologize if I derailed ypur thread a tad, the condescension is what gets to me.

                          Your questions were good ones and it was fun reading most of the responses. My suggestion would be to listen to some well designed speakers. I know the caveat is finding someone with a respectable system to do that. Not sure what area you're in but the various DIY shows are a good place to hear a lot of different designs.

                          I've done a lot of different builds and in my opinion, there isn't one solid answer to your question. It really depends on your listening habits, room, budget, and what equipment you have or are willing to purchase (amp, preamp, source). Speaker building can be a volcano that we all throw our money in, but it's a lot of fun . And none of this is to discourage you, rather encourage you and try to help you think it thru. But, if you like SPL, there is no replacement for displacement
                          "The ability of any system to produce exceptional sound will be limited mainly by the capability of the speakers" Jim Salk
                          "Audio is surely a journey full of revelations as you go" JasonP

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                          • #45
                            Sorry if someone mentioned this and I missed it...

                            ...But one of my main reasons for doing small tower speakers is just a space thing. If you make a standard two-way speaker with a 5-7" woofer and place it on a stand, you have basically wasted space underneath the speaker that you could be using to create additional satisfying bass. I realize that an attractive stand has less visual impact than just making the box go all the way to the floor, and that may be better looking depending on your point of view, even I find narrow stands with a small two-way on top attractive....

                            However, if your speaker is designed to be narrow enough, you can mount the bottom sub driver facing to the side and it all can fit in there fairly decently without taking up much space. I've done small curved towers with side-firing PR's and they work fine, one could use a sub driver and PR in this same configuration.

                            As for how two woofers/subwoofers will interact with your room at that same location as your main speakers -- it's up to the room really -- but I don't usually seem to find it a huge problem in my implementations of this setup. Perfect world -- you'd position subwoofers where they'll do the most good/least damage to overall frequency response in the room, but that's kind of like a rule-of-thumb that we all bend here and there anyway.
                            As for the larger woofer argument making more impactful upper bass/lower midrange, I find that to be a thing as well, though I mostly make smaller driver speakers at this point and like their sound also. It amazes me how two or three speakers with basically the same response curve "on a graph" can sound so different one from another. I amaze easily, though.

                            Just my two cents; probably ain't even worth that much.

                            TomZ
                            Zarbo Audio Projects Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEZ...aFQSTl6NdOwgxQ * 320-641 Amp Review Youtube: https://youtu.be/ugjfcI5p6m0 *Veneering curves, seams, using heat-lock iron on method *Trimming veneer & tips *Curved Sides glue-up video
                            *Part 2 *Gluing multiple curved laminations of HDF

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                            • Blenton
                              Blenton commented
                              Editing a comment
                              "It amazes me how two or three speakers with basically the same response curve "on a graph" can sound so different one from another."

                              This.

                              Another forum member and I have discussed this numerous times (not argued, but discussed - as in I keep asking "WHY?") Sometimes I hear speakers that sound BIG or at least BIGGER than they ought to, especially when compared to other speakers in the same room in sometimes the exact same position Yes, I know the laws of physics dictates that two bodies cannot occupy the same space at the same time; that's why we moved the other speakers first. (I didn't want the wise one to correct my on the laws of physics) They can even measure almost identically or at least very similarly, but one will sound vastly different.
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