Decent system in a hybrid vehicle ???

[Fishchris]

I have asked this in several other places, but maybe someone here will have something to add...
As you probably understand, their are a LOT more Hybrid and even all electric vehicles coming out all the time. This poses a problem. These vehicles do not use an "alternator" but rather, and "inverter" which takes juice from the big, high voltage traction battery, and converts it to 12V, for the accessories battery. Problem is, so far, NO manufacturer expects anyone to pull very much juice from the 12V battery. Certainly not what a lot of folks would like to draw, for a strong SQL stereo system :(

So, I have a 2019 Prius LE, which Toyota will tell you, has "only" a 30 amp maximum draw. While trying to build an aftermarket system, I ran into a guy who owned a stereo shop, and had actually put in a system in his wifes 2019 Prius LE (same exact model as mine) He actually put a in few bigger, and bigger amps, just to see what it would take :O Crazy if you ask me, but better him than me lol So he said it could handle about 90 or 100 amps all day long, but anything much over that, it would pop up a warning message that read, "Electrical error". So he ended up putting in an amp that was fused for 100 amps, but only typically drew 40 or 50 max. Zero problems after that. Based on his info, I did pretty much exactly the same, and I have not had any problems either.

The thing is though, this ^ was "my car". Now, my GF wants me to put a decent little SQ system in her brand new (she's waiting for it to be built now) Ford Maverick Hybrid. For both cost, and ease, I am really just about sold on the Kicker Key amps with built in, auto adjusting DSP's... both the 4 ch for her mids / highs, and the mono amp, for a nice little 8" or 10" sub. The total fuse rating for both of these is 80 amps. Now, I'm not asking anyone to tell me that this will be okay (because of the whole liability thing) but I think it will be. Only a little more paranoid, because its my GF's brand spanking new vehicle !

But all of this talk ^ is just for a couple of modest little daily driver systems. What the heck is going to happen to STRONG SQL systems (or even SPL, if that's your thing) as all cars end up being Hybrids and all electrics ??? Is somebody going to start making stronger, aftermarket inverters ? I mean these big high voltage traction batteries are WAY capable of powering a ridiculous stereo system. It's just a matter of converting enough of that juice to 12V's.... Hmmm.

Your thoughts ??? Thank you.

[billfitzmaurice]

When I want to listen to music with maximum fidelity I sit in my living room chair. No matter what you use for a car system it's still one of the worst possible listening environments, so 200 watts total Class D should suffice for a DD car system. That's 200 watts, not 200 amps.

[LIDAR]

My Volvo C70 with the Dynaudio system sounded very good. Better than most in-home systems I've heard. Good car audio can be done if adequate care is applied. It's a pity that the car got old and was discontinued.

[Fishchris]

Well hey Bill, I just spend very little time in my living room, as I'm an outdoors guy that drives a TON both for work, and for play.... And I LOVE music. So what's a guy like me going to do ?
Besides all that, we have neighbors pretty close on both sides. IF we had a nice strong home system that could dig deep and powerfully, it might be okay for movies with an occasional explosion or something, but a rhythmic bass thump would not really be cool, especially after 9pm 🙂
Oh, and just for my personal tastes, while 200 watts can do quite well for everything from mid bass on up, it doesn't do much with a sub woofer, below 30 or 35 Hz. And I really do enjoy a little bit of shaking in my stomach at times 😉👍

PS, IMPO, 1500-2000 wts in a vehicle is pretty reasonable (and pretty decent for a nice SQL system).... But I think that's a little beyond what manufacturers expect people to want in their vehicles ☹️

[djg]

They're making these again? Listening to amplified music is not very "green".

[Fishchris]

Uhhhh... No 🙂 Don't ask me why they went with the name Maverick but it's actually a completely different vehicle. It is a mini truck 🙂👍

[djg]

My gf back then had a Maverick, not Ford's best effort.

[Brian Steele]

SQ car audio in an EV should be pretty awesome if done right:
1. A LOT less background noise
2. Fixed listening position
3. A lot less "room mode" issues.

You might be able to get away with a lower-powered system simply because the background noise level is going to be a lot less.

[Fishchris]

Well hey Brian, since you should mention it, besides being borderline enough amperage in my Prius, I have to say, that car makes some rock solid voltage ! Nothing ever flickers, and I can have the AC blasting on a 105 degree day, cranking the stereo, and it will all run with the ICE not even on for 15 or 20 minutes, before the ICE finally cycles on for only about 1-2 minutes, then right back off for 15-20 more !
it's a fantastic setup, I just wish I could draw 150-200 amps.... Even if it had to cycle on more often.

[tomzarbo]

Stupid question probably, but has anyone tapped into the main battery output where it goes into the stock inverter, and then added an additional, beefier inverter to handle just the stereo duties?
I know it's tricky because the voltages (and mostly amperage) is crazy high, just wondering if it's feasible to do so, or just too dangerous.

TomZ

[LIDAR]

Here's your idea carried to it's ultimate conclusion: https://www.plugoutpower.com/
Is >3.5kW enough power for you? ;-)

[Fishchris]

Tom ! WoW ! This is VERY cool Is 3500 watts enough ? I dunno'... maybe. That's about what I have in my truck. But this thing can make 240 volts ??? (sorry, I'm electrically stupid.... but is the 3.5Kwts @ 240 volts ? Does this make the 3.5Kwts the equivalent of like 3.5 $#!+ tons of power ? Or is it still only 3.5Kwts ?

A device like you posted, could change the whole ball game ! Not sure how many of you are aware, but there are several company that already make a high voltage car audio amplifier > its just that until now, they expected you top stack twenty 12 volt car batteries to make 240 volts ! If you went through all that though, you could use a single, relatively small amplifier, to make well over 100Kwts in a freaking vehicle !!! Ridiculous, right ? Now I need to know how this thing works, and could it power one of these high voltage car audio amps ? BTW, these amps are not even expensive... Only like $800

Ya' know, I've been saying this for quite a while now... But if a vehicle is able to make enough electrical juice, to push a 3800 lb vehicle, down the freeway, it should be able to make plenty of power to push a pretty ridiculous stereo system... Its just been a matter of how to get it from the big traction battery, to the amplifier safely.

[Fishchris]

Tom, I'm so electrically stupid :( I know their is the volts/amps/watts triangle thing.... but not sure of the equasions.

My stupid question is, could this > https://www.plugoutpower.com/product-page/plugout-5k

Be used to run this > https://www.stetsom.com.br/en/produto/force-extreme/

I know, this is a 5 Kwt inverter, and a 180 Kwt amplifier but because of that electrical triangle thing... Is this even remotely possible ? They do make smaller high voltage car stereo amplifiers... like the wimpy little 40 Kwt things too lol

It's just that ever since I found out about those High Voltage car audio amplifiers, I've been wondering if their was a way to power one "without" stacking 20 or more 12V batteries in the vehicle... which I think, even for a stereo demo vehicle, is a little ridiculous.

[wogg]

OK... so that plugoutpower thing requires taps into the high voltage battery array, not a 12V system. I have no idea how accessible that is in an EV or hybrid. That kind of inverter would be an option if you'll run regular home amps plugged into 120V rather than car audio amps. That would work, but will probably be more expensive and bulkier. For a car amp structure, you'd need a DC-DC converter tapped off that high voltage to knock it down to 14V to run amps where they would off an alternator. What you don't want to do is run an inverter to 120VAC, then a power supply back down to 14V for your amps, that will kill efficiency twice.

Watts and VA - That number doesn't change, the volts or amps change to keep the same number based on Ohm's law, V*A = W (for this purpose using W and VA interchangeably, no need to get into the whole real / apparent power and phase thing). For example, a 1500W hair dryer in the US at 120V draws 12.5A. In the UK, that same hair dryer will draw 6.25A on a 240V plug to get that same 1500W rating.

Whatever power supply you end up with should be capable of delivering the fuse rating of your amplifiers, so for a 40A fused amplifier that's 560W (14V*40A) of required power from the supply. That's also the maximum real RMS power that amp could possibly drive a speaker less efficiency loss (~70% for class AB, ~90% for class D).

I'm not sure if anyone has a product you're looking for all ready to market, that's a pretty niche thing. Some casual googling led to lots of design papers and components, but no out of the box solutions.

[Fishchris]

OK... so that plugoutpower thing requires taps into the high voltage battery array, not a 12V system. I have no idea how accessible that is in an EV or hybrid. That kind of inverter would be an option if you'll run regular home amps plugged into 120V rather than car audio amps. That would work, but will probably be more expensive and bulkier. For a car amp structure, you'd need a DC-DC converter tapped off that high voltage to knock it down to 14V to run amps where they would off an alternator. What you don't want to do is run an inverter to 120VAC, then a power supply back down to 14V for your amps, that will kill efficiency twice.

Watts and VA - That number doesn't change, the volts or amps change to keep the same number based on Ohm's law, V*A = W (for this purpose using W and VA interchangeably, no need to get into the whole real / apparent power and phase thing). For example, a 1500W hair dryer in the US at 120V draws 12.5A. In the UK, that same hair dryer will draw 6.25A on a 240V plug to get that same 1500W rating.

Whatever power supply you end up with should be capable of delivering the fuse rating of your amplifiers, so for a 40A fused amplifier that's 560W (14V*40A) of required power from the supply. That's also the maximum real RMS power that amp could possibly drive a speaker less efficiency loss (~70% for class AB, ~90% for class D).

I'm not sure if anyone has a product you're looking for all ready to market, that's a pretty niche thing. Some casual googling led to lots of design papers and components, but no out of the box solutions.

TY Wogg. But did you see that the {car audio} amplifier I posted is not a 12V amplifier ? Its actually variable... I believe from 120-280 Volts. And their are actually a few other companies making them too. How could you power one of these without stacking a shit ton of 12V car batteries ?

Have you ever seen this guys setup ? He is actually coming straight off of the high voltage battery in this all electric Fiat, and he's using the "smaller" 114Kwt Stetsom amp.... He has several other videos that explain different stuff. He is actually an electrical engineer for Google... and he "only says about 300 X's... this is extremely dangerous, and you should not try this at home" lol Looks pretty cool to me though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVKB1D2SoR0&t=184s

[wogg]

TY Wogg. But did you see that the {car audio} amplifier I posted is not a 12V amplifier ? Its actually variable... I believe from 120-280 Volts. And their are actually a few other companies making them too. How could you power one of these without stacking a **** ton of 12V car batteries ?

Have you ever seen this guys setup ? He is actually coming straight off of the high voltage battery in this all electric Fiat, and he's using the "smaller" 114Kwt Stetsom amp.... He has several other videos that explain different stuff. He is actually an electrical engineer for Google... and he "only says about 300 X's... this is extremely dangerous, and you should not try this at home" lol Looks pretty cool to me though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVKB1D2SoR0&t=184s

I did not notice that! Those amps are straight built for this circumstance, just feed them off the high voltage tap (presuming that's accessible) and be super careful to not kill yourself

The amps should draw less current off higher voltage supplies, though I'm not clear on how they designed them of if they have a DC-DC supply internally that locks in the internal supply to an expected voltage. The pages were mostly in Spanish. Presuming they have a DC-DC switching supply in order to keep the output in an expected design range, the input current will be inversely proportional to the input voltage for the same power output.

For example, lets say 1000W RMS output at 2 ohms. That's 22A RMS into 2 ohms, 45V RMS, 127V P-P. So the amp theoretically needs a 130V supply at 22A to keep that going. On a 12V input, that's 238A but on a 48V system you only need 60A to get that kind of power. Those are all rough theory calculations, the real current needed is much lower than that, plus nobody runs a full out sine wave indefinitely at full power.