Peerless HDS 830869 vs SB Acoustics SB23 vs Dayton RS225

[AndyWest]

Here's a modelling comparison of the three woofers. These are all shown in the 36L enclosure tuned to 35Hz for comparative purposes.

There is also a comparison showing the peerless tuned to 40Hz instead of 35Hz.

Blue = Peerless @ 35Hz
Red = Peerless @ 40Hz
Green = SB23
Purple = RS225

SPL comparison @ 50Hz
Peerless @ 35Hz, @ 34W = 103.8dB
Peerless @ 40Hz, @ 40W = 105.5dB
SB23 @ 36W = 104.9dB
RS225 @ 70W = 105.6dB

SPL comparison @ 40Hz
Peerless @ 35Hz, @ 34W = 101.6dB
Peerless @ 40Hz, @ 40W = 102.2dB
SB23 @ 36W = 101.9dB
RS225 @ 70W = 104.5dB


.

This not how I interpret things.

All of these woofers require different cabinet sizes and tuning frequencies. I wouldn't model them all at 36L, 35Hz.
I used that with the peerless because I believe those settings are optimum for that particular driver.
Should I want similar tuning frequency in a similar cabinet volume, I'd use SB23NRX- 4 or RS225p.

I wonder how you came up with 101.6dB @ 40Hz at 34W for 35Hz tuning for the peerlees.

Woofers can take significant power around tuning frequencies which is the whole point of bass reflex.
Please see the attached screenshots for more accurate simulation of maximum power and maximum SPL for this particular driver.




Tuning the peerless at 40Hz might be apparently flatter but depending on the room that might have too much bass.
It can give 3dB more SPL at 50Hz than the 35Hz tuning variant but would get quickly bottomed out at 30-35Hz.
So, in general music playback, the 40Hz tuned variant will bottom out first.

In general music content ( not movie tracks or special effects) the frequencies which are most excursion demanding are based around 35Hz.
So, protection around 35Hz will mostly decide how loud a speaker can play, unless a HPF is used, which is out of question in a passive crossover system.

While deciding not to go with a 2-way design with your SB23NBAC-8, what X-over frequency did you have in mind?

[AndyWest]

SPL @ xMax:

This is exactly the issue I am talking about. One woofer with 10mm Xmax can perform worse than another with 3mm Xmax, all other things be exactly the same ( hypothetical).
Xmax for overhang design is simply the amount of overhang on either design. Does stated Xmax care about suspension linearity or suspension variation? Of course not.

So your 10mm Xmax can perform like a 2mm due to bad suspension design.

Like I already said above klippel tests says compliance limited X-linear for the Peerless and SB23 is 2.2mm and 3.9mm respectively.

Hence, I am looking for actual experiences not simulations. I can do simulations myself and it is not helpful beyond a point.

[DeZZar]

All of these woofers require different cabinet sizes and tuning frequencies. I wouldn't model them all at 36L, 35Hz.

Well of course not - simply a comparison of what would happen if you 'hot swapped' these woofers into your existing application.

I believe xmax is generally quoted @ 10% THD. Someone with a little more specific expertise in this might correct me if I'm wrong.

I wonder how you came up with 101.6dB @ 40Hz at 34W for 35Hz tuning for the peerlees.

No wondering required - straight out of the winISD model.

While deciding not to go with a 2-way design with your SB23NBAC-8, what X-over frequency did you have in mind?

Kind of the other way around - I had a 3-way design in mind and looked for suitable drivers for the application. SB23, MW16 and TW29 is where I landed with crossover points targeted around 250 and 2K - yet to be finalized. Project has taken a back seat for a moment in place of others.

Like I already said above klippel tests says compliance limited X-linear for the Peerless and SB23 is 2.2mm and 3.9mm respectively.

Hence, I am looking for actual experiences not simulations. I can do simulations myself and it is not helpful beyond a point.

Well it sounds like you have all the practical knowledge you need then. I'm not sure what else can be said. I'm personally happy with the SB's performance but then again I'm not asking it to produce midrange and marry up to a tweeter.

I have a two way tower based on the 7inch RS180P playing down to 34Hz and I'm very happy with it - but it has its limitations - depending on content it simply cant go concert loud - its a small room near-field-ish type application. Even this required a tweeter that can play low for a crossover point around 1700Hz, third order.

Low distortion, high SPL, full spectrum coverage....this is basically the holy grail of speaker design - an 8 inch two-way isn't going to get you there - plain and simple. The SB MAY be more to your liking given the additional distortion free headroom but its still going to bottom out fairly quickly. There's a reason high SPL designs use multiple woofers covering the same octaves.

[Chris Roemer]

"Xmax" IS the (mfr's) "spec" on peak-to-peak excursion (USUALLY!) before (bad) distortion sets in.
How far a suspension can (mechanically) move due to (say) the v.c. former hitting the backplate (or whatnot) is usually referred to as "Xlim" or "Xmech", but (alas), not TOO MANY mfr's offer this spec. Xmech/lim is never less than Xmax. On some drivers (with rather limited suspensions) Xmax and Xlim/mech are very nearly the same. (I've seen many of Dayton's "Classic" drivers perform this way, having personally used the DC130, 160, 200, and 250 (5-¼, 6-½, 8, and 10")).

[AndyWest]

"Xmax" IS the (mfr's) "spec" on peak-to-peak excursion (USUALLY!) before (bad) distortion sets in.

Manufacturer's rated Xmax do not directly care for any distortion.

Mostly, these are the calculations they use:

1. For overhang voice coil, Xmax= (coil length- gap height)/2 : This is by far the most common.
2. For overhand voice coil. Xmax= ( coil length-gap height)/2 + gap height/3 : Some companies particularly making pro drivers use this method. Recently Tymphany started using this menthod. So, Peerless 830869 has Xmax of 7.5mm now!
3. For Underhang voice coil, Xmax= (gap height- voice coil length)/2
4. For underhung voice coil, Xmax = (gap height - voice coil length)/2+ Voice coil length/3

In case of overhung design, (coil length-gap height)/2 should correspond to 82% BL variance which should result in 10% THD.
But that is almost almost never the case, thanks to asymmetry. 82% BL almost always is less than the calculated X max above.

Similarly, 70% Cms variation gives 10% THD. But 70% Cms is almost always way less than the rated Xmax calculated above.
Peerless 830869 has 70% Cms of 2.2mm ( instead of rated 5.5mm). SB23 has 70% Cms of 3.9mm ( instead of 6.5mm)
SB17 has 70% Cms of 1.9mm ( instead of 5.5 mm)

So, if manufacturers cared about actual distortion at all, they would have used the actual performance data of either 10% THD ( standard measurement for woofers, 82% BL and 70 % Cms) or 20% THD ( standard measurement for subwoofers, 70% BL and 50 % Cms). But manufacturers do not care about distortion data at all.

Maybe with the exception with JBL high end pro woofers where they present klippel test report and give Xmax based on distortion. They do not care about the calculation formula used by others.

Scanspeak 18WU has rated Xmax of 9mm and actual 70% Cms variation is at 9.1mm according to one test. That is something very rare.

Usually when Seas states 6mm for its woofers, actual value is around 3-4mm only.

Purify might have 82% BL of 10mm but 70% Cms is only at 6.5mm.

I hope everyone understands this. Rated Xmax is mostly meaningless, so are the simulations you do with it.
To repeat again, manufacturers use a formula based upon BL variation and completely ignore Cms variation ( which is very convenient because many people do not understand this at all)
As a matter of fact, manufacturing a decent suspension is very hard compared to designing a decent magnet system.
You must have seen SB Satori and Scanspeak Illuminator uses Bimax suspensions.

[andy19191]

Most of the 8 inch woofers are tuned to 30-35Hz. And what you said applies to all of those applications as that is the very basic of how bass reflex works. I don't think if this should be even be the subject for discussion.

You haven't noticed a correlation between those who are experienced at DIYing speakers and those who don't size and tune their bass reflex enclosures to the recommended values? You don't believe the "50-60Hz" distortion you seemed to be posting about is modifiable to some degree by sizing and tuning the cabinet and port? It would seem that I, like several other posters in the thread I suspect, don't quite understand what you want help with beyond it involving the choice of 8" midwoofers based on criteria that are not clear at least to me.

BTW a nonlinear suspension is not necessarily going to lead high distortion because the movement of the cone is also determined by other nonlinear forces which are normally designed to compensate. The effort made in this respect is greater with more expensive prestige drivers rather than standard range drivers and also to some extent with modern designs compared to older designs. Apologies if this shouldn't even be a subject for discussion.

[AndyWest]

You haven't noticed a correlation between those who are experienced at DIYing speakers and those who don't size and tune their bass reflex enclosures to the recommended values? You don't believe the "50-60Hz" distortion you seemed to be posting about is modifiable to some degree by sizing and tuning the cabinet and port? It would seem that I, like several other posters in the thread I suspect, don't quite understand what you want help with beyond it involving the choice of 8" midwoofers based on criteria that are not clear at least to me.

BTW a nonlinear suspension is not necessarily going to lead high distortion because the movement of the cone is also determined by other nonlinear forces which are normally designed to compensate. The effort made in this respect is greater with more expensive prestige drivers rather than standard range drivers and also to some extent with modern designs compared to older designs. Apologies if this shouldn't even be a subject for discussion.

Isn't it rude for you to claim being more experienced just because you have more forum posts?
Peerless themselves ( the manufacturers) recommend 35Hz tuning frequency for this woofer.
I told you why tuning at 35hz is important, but you are bent on filling up some 'hole' with total disregard for what I said.

Every 8 inch woofer tuned at 35Hz with have the 'hole' at those frequencies you stated. But with a better suspension, distortion will show up at higher SPL. Even +3dB is significant.

To repeat myself once again,

1. Tuning to 40Hz instead of 35Hz will make the speakers vulnerable to over-excursion at frequencies that are most excursion demanding in common music ie around 35Hz.
2. Tuning to 40Hz instead of 35Hz will change the bass alignment of the speakers which is not a way to solve the problem at hand. Better to live with a few dB less SPL.
3. For me, the only way is to look for a woofer with better suspension, hence more X-max.

If you go through my original post, I never asked for anyone's help or advice regarding my peerless build. I shared that to illustrate the point of this thread.
If anyone has experience with either 2 of the mentioned 3 woofers, I requested them to share their experiences.

[djg]

I saw this coming yesterday.

[andy19191]

Isn't it rude for you to claim being more experienced just because you have more forum posts?

??? I think it may be wise to bow out of thread at this point. Good luck with whatever it is you are after.

[Chris Roemer]

Yeah Andy(w/25 posts). You know w-a-a-a-a-y too much to be here asking ?s.
If anything, you should be letting all us guys (w/way too many posts) ask YOU questions. Bye.

[fatmarley]

How about the Scanspeak 21WE/8542T00?

[AndyWest]

Yeah Andy(w/25 posts). You know w-a-a-a-a-y too much to be here asking ?s.
If anything, you should be letting all us guys (w/way too many posts) ask YOU questions. Bye.

I know 2 person to whom you can forward all your questions:

1. Someone who know something but hasn't heard of this forum. ie. 0 posts
or
2. Someone who doesn't know much but has more than 10K posts here. After all, increasing quantity of posts is really easy. You just need to have a lot of time and good advice, bad advice, out of topic ramblings, everything increases post counts. Knowledge is not a pre-requisite for number of posts.

I did not ask your help regarding my peerless build. I was asking for inputs from people who have experiences with these woofers. Thanks for de-railing the thread.

On the bright side, you seem to have no clue what Xmax is. Hopefully, I taught you something.

[AndyWest]

a4eaudio

Read my entire post. Most of the major driver manufacturers that we are concerned with uses some form of calculation with no regards to actual distortion performance. There are exceptions like JBL as I mentioned and sure there will be others. But thats minority.

Seas, Dayton, Scanspeak, Tymphany/vifa/ peerless, SB Acoustics, Acoustic Elegance, Accuton, Purify, Beyma, Eton, Fountek, Fostex, Usher, TangBang, Hi-Vi, Morel, Audax and even Zaph Audio uses Xmax calculated on overhung or underhung amount and not on actual distortion performance. I could find only JBL among major manufacturers measuring actual distortion. Eminence is kind of playing a shady game.

Now if you are really bent on googling out some manufacturers who states xmax based upon distortion measurements, you will most likely find some.
But look at the list I showed you above. That includes most of the major manufacturers. The ones I forgot to add most likely belongs to the same group.

[a4eaudio]

All that may be true, but irrelevant to my point... Chris has a clue and you probably didn't teach him anything. Your thread went off the rails because (although to be fair, nobody ever actually answered what you asked in post#1)...(1) you claimed Andy19191 said something that he didn't say (2) you claimed Chris didn't have a clue when what he said was correct. Sorry I can't actually answer your question, at I do not have actual experience with two or more of the drivers your interested in

[AndyWest]

Read carefully. Chris said "Xmax" IS the (mfr's) "spec" on peak-to-peak excursion (USUALLY!) before (bad) distortion sets in"
99% of the time, rated Xmax is calculated like I showed you, with no regard for actual distortion performance.

This thread went off rails because these two people were giving unsolicited advice regarding my peerless build when that was not even up for discussion.
One of them was even insisting I listen to him because of his experience when I rejected his advice of reconsidering my port tuning frequency.

I clearly mentioned what I wanted in my original post. And one of them later wrote he had no clue what I am looking for.
Maybe people should stop wasting everyone's time.

Other members contributing here didn't have experience with multiple woofers mentioned here. But they didn't try to derail the threat. Helpful in the spirit of the forum.

[AndyWest]

How about the Scanspeak 21WE/8542T00?

The 21WE seems like a very good woofer. If I could afford it, I might not be looking for alternatives.

I am curious why scanspeak went from underhung (WU series) to overhang design ( WE series).

[Steve Lee]

An increase in alcohol consumption, most likely.

[Blenton]

[dkalsi]

AndyWest - Similar to you, I have used the Peerless in 35Hz-ish tuned speaker and I too was not happy. I ended up increasing the tuning frequency (can't remember to exactly where, but will go back to my build). I understand your concern about losing out some output on lower frequencies - but to me, the compromise was worth it. If the port in your build is easily replaceable, you could try experimenting with that (as others have suggested) while you wait for additional recommendations.

Also - welcome to the forum :-). I think some things are just being lost in translation, and it's always difficult to accurately understand one's tone via text, but know (FWIW) that Chris Roemer and andy19191 are some of the nicest people you will meet in this community. Their post count aside, they are always willing to assist newcomers (like me) as well as brainstorm with more experienced builders (like you).

Best of luck with your (re-)build.

DeZZar - I know you have relegated the 23NBAC to sub 250hz duty, but you should definitely consider trying to use it in a 2way - just a quick test box. I've seen your skills here and I know it's going to be extremely difficult for you to build something that does not look a million bucks - but encourage you to experiment with this just as a learning exercise. The reason why I'm suggesting you try it is because I got a chance to hear the Ocean Way Audio Eureka speakers (which I believe employ this woofer) at my local Capital Audiofest and I really felt it was one of the best 2-ways I heard that day. I'm sure polars are not great when you jump from 8" to 1" - but, take my word, the speaker still sounded amazing nonetheless.

[DeZZar]

Thanks for the feedback. Maybe one day soon. I have a few too many designs in the backlog already but I'll keep it in mind if I get tempted to go down the 8" two way path!

[AndyWest]

AndyWest - Similar to you, I have used the Peerless in 35Hz-ish tuned speaker and I too was not happy. I ended up increasing the tuning frequency (can't remember to exactly where, but will go back to my build). I understand your concern about losing out some output on lower frequencies - but to me, the compromise was worth it. If the port in your build is easily replaceable, you could try experimenting with that (as others have suggested) while you wait for additional recommendations.

Thank you for sharing.
The speakers with the Peerless woofer are painted and buffed into final finish. I cannot change the tuning frequency and these would be going to a new home anyway.
So, if I am starting a new build better start with the better driver.

Never heard of Ocean way before. I did a quick search and the Eureka seems to have very good reviews. They seem to be using the SB23NACS45-4, silver aluminum cone version most likely not available now. The person who built them says he used unusually high crossover ( I guess around 3Khz from the impedance plot). This is a strange application for this woofer given its breakup characteristics and sharp rise of distortion beyond 1.5Khz, but if it sounds good, its a good design. The 8 inch bi-radial driver from the very popular Harbeths doesn't even seem to have a shorting ring and crosses at 3KHz and still get good reviews. Maybe it is the DIY builders who follow too many rules.

I noticed something very strange with the Ocean way Eureka. It has a professional version with active amplifications and controls and costs significantly less at around $4000 per pair.
The Eureka starts at $7000 and goes upto $12000.

Whats going on here? Audiophile tax?

Anyways, its nice to see the affordable SB23 being used in $12000 speakers. Thanks.