Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

New project - Seas U16RCY/P with SB26STCN or SB21SDC

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • New project - Seas U16RCY/P with SB26STCN or SB21SDC

    So I want to build a 2-way with the Seas UR16RCY/P.

    They will be built into an entertainment center flanking the TV Screen.

    Kind of like this (not to scale):

    Click image for larger version  Name:	EC.JPG Views:	0 Size:	55.1 KB ID:	1487280

    I have a maximum baffle width of 7".

    They will be used for music, mostly background and casual listening, and TV.

    They will be in a fairly large great room and we listen off axis more often than not.

    I did some work in Xsim with that woofer and both tweeters( I used the woofer data from the Zaph audio site and tweeter data is from HIFi compass) I also did not apply any baffle step as these will be basically wall mounted (not sure if this is correct or if I should have a couple db)

    SB21:


    Click image for larger version  Name:	SB21 sim.JPG Views:	0 Size:	246.7 KB ID:	1487276

    Click image for larger version  Name:	SB21 RN.JPG Views:	0 Size:	72.1 KB ID:	1487277

    SB26:
    Click image for larger version  Name:	SB26 sim.JPG Views:	0 Size:	245.0 KB ID:	1487278
    Click image for larger version  Name:	SB26 RN.JPG Views:	0 Size:	74.0 KB ID:	1487279


    Pros for the SB21 for me:

    1. A little better off axis
    2. I already own a pair

    Pros for the SB26 for me:

    1. Appears a little easier to work with
    2. Seems people like this tweeter a lot, not many opinions on the SB21

    Please let me know what you all think about tweeter choice and also any comments you may have on my sims.

    Thanks,

    Richard

  • #2
    Richard,

    It might just be me, but I can't see any of the pics for some reason.

    TomZ
    Zarbo Audio Projects Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEZ...aFQSTl6NdOwgxQ * 320-641 Amp Review Youtube: https://youtu.be/ugjfcI5p6m0 *Veneering curves, seams, using heat-lock iron on method *Trimming veneer & tips *Curved Sides glue-up video
    *Part 2 *Gluing multiple curved laminations of HDF

    Comment


    • Jakes_dad
      Jakes_dad commented
      Editing a comment
      Tom,

      I can see them on my PC, but not on my phone. Not sure what is causing that.

      I uploaded my photos again, I think that fixed it.

    • a4eaudio
      a4eaudio commented
      Editing a comment
      I cannot see them either.

    • Jakes_dad
      Jakes_dad commented
      Editing a comment
      Not sure what is going on, I see them on my PC and phone and checked on another PC and see them there as well. I don't know how to fix it at this point.

  • #3
    I can see 'em on an OLD PC using Firefox (on Vista).

    Comment


    • #4
      Did you adapt the responses to your baffles and location or use them as they were?
      If you did not, then this is all a wash and is neither a valid Sim or a good example of the upcoming build.

      My thoughts, are that you should be able to go 1st order electrical on the woofer,, as the U Series is known for it. You should likely be okay with either tweeter. I would go sb26 for an easier xover, and likely better sound than the more unknown sb21, but you do have a pair already to use.

      Wolf
      "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
      "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
      "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
      "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

      *InDIYana event website*

      Photobucket pages:
      https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

      My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

      Comment


      • Jakes_dad
        Jakes_dad commented
        Editing a comment
        Wolf,

        "Did you adapt the responses to your baffles and location or use them as they were?"

        I modeled the baffle size and driver position in Response Modeler to incorporate diffraction and derived minimum phase. Is this what you were referring to?

      • Wolf
        Wolf commented
        Editing a comment
        Sounds like you prepared well. I look forward to your progress...

    • #5
      I can now see the pics on my phone and pc.

      If you go with the SB26 I have a brand new pair that I'm not going to use as planned.

      Comment


      • #6
        The traced Infinite Baffle (IB) responses are probably OK if you're mounting them on the wall. I see you included some estimate for delay in the woofer, but can't tell if you created minimum phase versions of your traced files. If not, none of your files have any phase information (if you open a frequency response or impedance file in notepad you'll see the 3rd parameter in each line is 0). If that's the case, use the "derived" option in the XSim driver "Tune" window to create minimum phase versions of all your frequency response and impedance files.
        The elephant in the room is the room

        Comment


        • Jakes_dad
          Jakes_dad commented
          Editing a comment
          I created minimum phase versions in Response Modeler and estimated .75' delay in XSim.

      • #7
        Been away from this for a bit, but I built some test cabinets a while back:

        ​​ Click image for larger version  Name:	PXL_20221104_013649493.jpg Views:	0 Size:	104.6 KB ID:	1492240
        I have been listening to them quite a bit with crossovers that I built with parts I had on hand and came up with this:

        ​​ Click image for larger version

Name:	crossover.jpg
Views:	379
Size:	101.2 KB
ID:	1492264

        These are the actual measurements in room placed next to the TV as in the first pic:

        Click image for larger version  Name:	cross.jpg Views:	0 Size:	53.8 KB ID:	1492258

        Click image for larger version  Name:	rev.jpg Views:	0 Size:	52.9 KB ID:	1492260


        Modelled impedance:

        Click image for larger version

Name:	imp.jpg
Views:	337
Size:	78.6 KB
ID:	1492265

        These are designed to be listened to off axis, and the dip around 3.5-4k smooths out once you get 15 degrees or so off axis.

        So what do you think?

        Any suggestions before I order the final parts for the crossovers?

        Thanks,

        Richard
        Last edited by Jakes_dad; 11-04-2022, 12:19 PM.

        Comment


        • #8
          This is the 15 degree off-axis measurment:

          Click image for larger version

Name:	15.jpg
Views:	303
Size:	49.6 KB
ID:	1492263

          Comment


          • #9
            The more important question is what do you think?

            Here are two other approaches using the U16RCY/P you might consider:

            1. Using LR2 slopes and a single inductor on the U16 (as Ben mentioned): http://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=2386

            2. Special attention on the U16 crossover (interesting reading): http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS-CURV.htm

            Also: Your FR plot would be more informative if it wasn't so compressed. How about vertical step size = 2 dB and then adjust vertical center?
            The elephant in the room is the room

            Comment


            • #10
              Originally posted by ernperkins View Post
              The more important question is what do you think?

              Here are two other approaches using the U16RCY/P you might consider:

              1. Using LR2 slopes and a single inductor on the U16 (as Ben mentioned): http://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=2386I

              2. Special attention on the U16 crossover (interesting reading): http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS-CURV.htm

              Also: Your FR plot would be more informative if it wasn't so compressed. How about vertical step size = 2 dB and then adjust vertical center?
              I have both of those projects bookmarked and couldn't get the single inductor to work very well, it's either my low crossover point or my lack of crossover skills.

              I revisited what Troels did and made another attempt, thanks for the nudge.

              I am now listening to this:

              Click image for larger version

Name:	11-4 cross.jpg
Views:	274
Size:	91.3 KB
ID:	1492350

              FR - in room, 24th octave smoothing, warts and all, including my super cool wall bounce

              Click image for larger version

Name:	11-4.jpg
Views:	253
Size:	96.5 KB
ID:	1492351

              Pretty happy at this point, gonna listen to this for a while and see.

              Any other input would be appreciated.

              Thanks,

              Richard

              Comment


              • #11
                This is the best / most fun part of building speakers! Make a x-over, and then listen to lots of music until you get the urge to alter it. Then listen more to the revised x-over. Eventually, you decide which you like the best.

                For measurements, I use gated. I want to see what the speaker is doing, not what the room is doing. Yes, the room can change the sound, but I would not try to fix that with the x-over. Changing tonal balance is done, but not based on a room measurement. Instead it is based on how I think it should sound.

                Comment


                • Jakes_dad
                  Jakes_dad commented
                  Editing a comment
                  We have these are set up as our main speakers in our family room. They were playing from about 8 this morning until about 7 tonight, so I had lots of time to listen and tweak. I think I am getting close, but still have a couple of things I want to try.

              • #12
                Interesting. My last 3 ways took 8 months for me to tweak.
                craigk

                " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

                Comment


                • rpb
                  rpb commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Although it's pretty easy to create a functional speaker x-over in a few days, it's fun to obsess over it for much longer!

                • Jakes_dad
                  Jakes_dad commented
                  Editing a comment
                  We have been listening to these for about a month or so and have gone through a lot of changes to the crossovers. We are going to listen for a while longer and see how it goes, but I think we are headed in the right direction.

                • ernperkins
                  ernperkins commented
                  Editing a comment
                  OCD Craig, OCD. Good to see you around again. :-)

              • #13
                Originally posted by Jakes_dad View Post

                I have both of those projects bookmarked and couldn't get the single inductor to work very well, it's either my low crossover point or my lack of crossover skills.

                I revisited what Troels did and made another attempt, thanks for the nudge.

                I am now listening to this:

                Click image for larger version

Name:	11-4 cross.jpg
Views:	274
Size:	91.3 KB
ID:	1492350

                FR - in room, 24th octave smoothing, warts and all, including my super cool wall bounce

                Click image for larger version

Name:	11-4.jpg
Views:	253
Size:	96.5 KB
ID:	1492351

                Pretty happy at this point, gonna listen to this for a while and see.

                Any other input would be appreciated.

                Thanks,

                Richard
                I rely on gated measurements of the speaker. I know that the room, and placement affect the sound, but I generally don't measure that. I have measured my speaker, and room together before, but it did not measure flat. A measurement like that does not tell me anything useful. If I hear something that I think is off, I can usually look at my gated measurements, and see where I need, or want, to make a change. Or I can speculate where to make the change, and then listen some more. A one dB difference over an octave is significant enough to hear. After a point, there's no right or wrong, there's just what you want.

                Comment


                • Jakes_dad
                  Jakes_dad commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I used a longer gate time on that one just to see where the overall balance was. I used a shorter gate time on the plots I posted earlier in this thread, but t wanted to get an idea of how they measured below 200 to confirm what I was hearing. Next time I make measurements I will go back to the shorter gate time.

              • #14
                Two months later and this is where I ended up. Pretty happy with this.

                2 dB step size:
                Click image for larger version

Name:	1-11 2db.jpg
Views:	134
Size:	123.4 KB
ID:	1494868

                Click image for larger version

Name:	1-11 dia.jpg
Views:	137
Size:	75.1 KB
ID:	1494865

                Click image for larger version

Name:	11-1 cross.jpg
Views:	135
Size:	171.1 KB
ID:	1494866

                Click image for larger version

Name:	1-11 imp.jpg
Views:	135
Size:	204.0 KB
ID:	1494867

                Comment


                • #15
                  Looks good, hope it sounds good!
                  Wolf
                  "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                  "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                  "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                  "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                  *InDIYana event website*

                  Photobucket pages:
                  https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

                  My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                  http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                  Comment


                  • Jakes_dad
                    Jakes_dad commented
                    Editing a comment
                    They sound pretty darn good to me, but I might be a bit biased.

                    For their intended purpose, they don't leave me wanting anything.

                    Thanks for checking my work, I am still not very confident in what I am doing.
                Working...
                X