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SDC (not MWAF) 2022 fallout thread....

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  • #61
    Hello All,

    First post in a couple of years here. I have been lurking recently to see if/when the write up from the SDC is posted by PE staff. I am also still waiting to get my score sheets and comments. Maybe soon on both of these.

    I have a couple of comments about the room setup. All in all let's keep in mind that this was evidently the first year in this facility and there are always some things that can be improved. The space is very well suited for the type of competition we had, but I think that there are a couple of things could help the experience.

    1. Listening/judging room setup.
    Putting adsorption everywhere, on all walls, is not a recipe for good sound. Instead these rooms would be better if the "live end dead end" concept was employed. This states that the front wall (the one you see behind the speakers from the listening position) should be "live" that is a hard, reflective surface. The wall behind the listening position should be quite dead. The side walls can have some adsorption, and this is especially helpful when the room is on the narrow side, like the judging room. Actually, the judging room was set up in the completely opposite way - no treatment behind the judges and all other walls with moving blankets and acoustic fabric. Live end dead end should make the sound better overall, for a variety of speaker types.

    2. Jam Room
    The same idea applies to the jam room regarding room treatment. This room is wider, so the side walls really do not need treatment towards the front of the room. Only the rear wall should be treated to make it more dead, and perhaps the side walls starting about halfway back.

    3. Location of playback equipment
    In both the judging and jam rooms, the rack of playback gear was right smack in the middle of where speakers are placed. This was IMHO a problem especially in the judging room. It's small. There is a desk in front of the judges. Larger speakers need some room to integrate properly. Because of the rack I set up my speakers about halfway in the room. They would have been better placed closer to the back wall (but no closer than 1m). Put the equipment at the back at the side opposite the door and get some long 12GA speaker cables. There is no need to clutter up the front with the gear, and this will place the equipment next to one of the judges if they need to use it. This is less of an issue in the Jam room because it is larger, but I think it would be better to move the rack to the side there too.

    4. Length of time to demo, and to talk to the builder
    We all would like to be able to play music through our speakers for longer in order to let the audience better judge them, etc. Unfortunately because of the pace at which the event must proceed and the ensuing rotation through the jam room after the judging room, I think there is no solution to the this issue. There is only so much time and space to work with at/during the event. On the other hand, I would have like to talk to several of the builders about their projects but I was unable to find the person or did not know who they were.

    5. Who is who?
    Another problem, particularly for me because I have not attended in the past, was that I had a very hard time putting together the names at the event with people I had only known via their username at PE or other online forums. It really took me awhile to figure out who some of these people were. Perhaps a larger name badge, maybe on a lanyard and bearing REAL NAME, SCREEN NAME, PROJECT NAME in large font would make this easier? For some reason I only received a tiny piece of paper with my name scribbled on it, dangling from a piece of tape to identify me. After 1 day these things often just fall off. A lanyard can be put on and taken off repeatedly, and is much more robust. Just a suggestions there, PE.

    I'd like to hear comments from others about these issues and my suggested improvements. Maybe we can crowd source some good solutions for next year.

    -Charlie
    Charlie's Audio Pages: http://audio.claub.net

    Comment


    • tomzarbo
      tomzarbo commented
      Editing a comment
      I agree100 % on point 5 for sure. I didn't know who you were even. There were a few other guys that I was able to figure out who they were, but a lot more who I just did not know about, and was too embarrassed to ask at this point. I also think a name, screen name would be great. I didn't stick my name tag on my clothes, but paper clipped it to my shirt pocket. That way I could use it for both days. But I think some lanyard setup would work too, and bigger. Nice meeting you Charlie. I said hi when we're seated on opposing couches in the open area.
      TomZ

  • #62
    Got mine in the mail a day or two ago.
    https://techtalk.parts-express.com/f...-a-desktop-mtm


    Category: Judge 1,2,3
    Clarity: 9 , 7 , 9
    Craftsmanship: 7 , 8 , 9
    Dynamic Range: 5 , 5 , 7
    Originality / Design: 4 , 6 , 8
    Soundstage / Imaging: 8 , 6 , 8
    Tonal Balance: 8 , 6 , 9

    Total , Average: 129 , 7.17

    Judge 1
    T1: Big sound,. Tuneful.
    T2: Did well. Lots of sound for size. Good vocal.
    T3: Good piano. Good instruments. Good vocal.
    Overall: Great Job (double exclamation point smiley face)

    Judge 2
    Bass a little weak and high in upper bass. Balance otherwise good except slightly low in mid and elevated in treble. Good overall for a small two way. Female voice good. Piano a little thin. Good transients.

    Judge 3
    T1: Surprising good bass, good tonal balance, tweeter level good
    T2: PS95's are working!, Good bass definition, missing lower bass, nice tonal balance
    T3: Great high hats, tweeter level. Good soundstage.
    Overall: Great Job

    -------------------------------
    Keith's Comments - Judge 2 apparently does not enjoy the choices I made in this design. Guess he's the "Russian judge"

    Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
    Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
    The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
    SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax
    The Defiants - InDIYana 2019 "Bare Minimum" Build

    Comment


    • #63
      Hmm, Judge 2 gave my entry higher scores than the other two judges, two 9s (dynamic range and tonal balance) and four 10s for the other criteria but also stated "Bass OK".
      Paul

      Comment


      • #64
        Originally posted by Billet View Post
        Clarity 9, 4, 8
        Craftsmanship 7, 5, 5
        Dynamic Range 6, 5, 8
        Originality/Design 7, 5, 5
        Soundstage/Imaging 8, 4, 7
        Total Balance 7, 5, 8
        Not sure what to make of scoring like this.

        I expect/accept that there is obviously a degree of subjectivity involved but to what extent to be fair in judging a competition?

        These scores (just using Billets as an example) kind of tell me the judges are just on completely different pages - they don't appear to have any sort of agreed reference. Take clarity for instance - all judges should be in at least basic agreement that one of those disposable plate speakers kids can make as a science experiment is a 0 (zero) and say 'x' speaker is an example of exceptional clarity - or that with this given test track a speaker with poor clarity will muddy these sounds and one with exceptional clarity will reveal this - all agreed - lets judge.

        Then you would expect a bit of, I think that's a 7 and someone else gives it an 8....not...4 and 9....this might as well tell you one judge thinks it sounds like a handheld radio and the other thinks its as close to perfect as clarity can get!?!?!?! There has to be some objective truths for each of these categories - they cant be completely subjective.

        Constructions: Dayton+SB 2-Way v1 | Dayton+SB 2-Way v2 | Fabios (SB Monitors)
        Refurbs: KLH 2 | Rega Ela Mk1

        Comment


        • wogg
          wogg commented
          Editing a comment
          I'm not entirely sure this is solvable, subjectivity is going to remain a huge factor in the categories of clarity, imaging, and tonal balance. My project's scores for imaging were even wider, with judge 1 not liking them at all and scoring me a 2 while judge 2 thought they were excellent and gave me a 10. Benefit of the doubt is a placement issue with the seat position for judge 1, but you'd figure that would reflect on many other projects as mine weren't anything odd regarding polar or power response and room interaction.

          Ultimately I try to remember that this is a hobby and I'm doing this for fun, no matter how much I'd like the dopamine hit of a win (and the credit to buy stuff). No ill will to the judges or PE for hosting!

        • Billet
          Billet commented
          Editing a comment
          I wonder if my speakers may have a phase issue in the center, it is somewhat possible. They are first order crossovers which are always a little out of phase somewhere. There also could have been some room interactions based on phase and/or placement angle. It is not easy to move a speaker from one environment to another and have it sound the same. This is always an issue at speaker shows, IMO.
          Last edited by Billet; 08-16-2022, 08:01 PM.

        • Geoff Millar
          Geoff Millar commented
          Editing a comment
          At least it's not like the international piano competition when Artur Rubinstein gave each competitor either zero or ten on the basis that either they could play, or couldn't play, the piano!

          Geoff

      • #65
        A tabulation error was discovered on the spreadsheet used to record the judge’s scores that affected the outcome in the Under $300 category at this year’s Speaker Design Competition.

        The final placements in the Under $300 category should have been:
        1st Place Paul Kittinger/ Duetta
        2nd Place Nick Santorineos / Carl & Stuart
        3rd Place John Hollander/ LCR Mains
        4th Place Michael Hadjinian / Bella Sonus Model 1

        We are so very sorry for this oversight and sincerely apologize to all the participants in the Under $300 category, particularly Nick Santorineos who was not appropriately recognized as the 2nd place winner at the event. We also apologize to the other competitors, spectators, and judges for the error.

        The final scores in all the other categories have been verified and no other placements were affected.

        Again, we humbly apologize for this mistake, and thank you for your understanding as we make efforts to correct it with all those affected.

        Comment


        • #66
          Originally posted by AdrianD View Post
          A tabulation error was discovered on the spreadsheet used to record the judge’s scores that affected the outcome in the Under $300 category at this year’s Speaker Design Competition.

          The final placements in the Under $300 category should have been:
          1st Place Paul Kittinger/ Duetta
          2nd Place Nick Santorineos / Carl & Stuart
          3rd Place John Hollander/ LCR Mains
          4th Place Michael Hadjinian / Bella Sonus Model 1

          We are so very sorry for this oversight and sincerely apologize to all the participants in the Under $300 category, particularly Nick Santorineos who was not appropriately recognized as the 2nd place winner at the event. We also apologize to the other competitors, spectators, and judges for the error.

          The final scores in all the other categories have been verified and no other placements were affected.

          Again, we humbly apologize for this mistake, and thank you for your understanding as we make efforts to correct it with all those affected.
          Well, mistakes do happen sometimes. It's commendable that you have clarified and rectified the situation. On the bright side, now there are EVEN MORE WINNERS!

          Congratulations Paul, Nick, John, and Michael!




          Charlie's Audio Pages: http://audio.claub.net

          Comment


          • #67
            Using Keith's format:

            Over $300, SP19, Diffractorama:

            Category: Judge 1,2,3

            Clarity: 8 , 9 , 10
            Craftsmanship: 10 , 8 , 9
            Dynamic Range: 8 , 8 , 9
            Originality / Design: 8 , 9 , 9.5
            Soundstage / Imaging: 10 , 8 , 10
            Tonal Balance: 8 , 8 , 9.5

            Total , Average: 159 , 8.83

            Judge 1
            T1: Space good. Lows good. Good image.
            T2: Great vocal. Great image.
            T3: Good spacing
            Overall: Great (double exclamation point smiley face)

            Judge 2
            Very lowest bass absent but does not impact rest of range. Stage good but somewhat limited in depth. Voices and instruments very clear, transients good. Good separation. Transients good without being harsh. Very neutral sounding. Male voices good.

            Judge 3
            T1: --- Spacious sound stage --- Very clean & open, nice
            T2: --- Great imaging, spacious --- Diffuse center image
            T3: --- Really nice --- Wide soundstage
            Overall: *Awesome Job!

            -------------------------------
            My Comments - All judges seemed to like my speakers; the scoring seems very consistent. Perhaps this has something to do with the huge 5.75" radius roundovers that I used. The big, bulbous donut creates very smooth and consistent on and off-axis response, so there would be very little variation in tonal balance or imaging from seat to seat. It is interesting that Judge 2 commented that the very lowest bass was absent, but from where I was sitting along the back wall, the low bass note came through loud and clear (somewhere in the 25-30Hz area). Perhaps this judge was sitting in a room null that wiped out the lowest bass frequencies. Small rooms tend to randomly kill off the deep bass unless you sit in just the right spot. Bill
            Last edited by 4thtry; 08-17-2022, 11:59 AM. Reason: Typo
            SideTowers: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...corundum-build
            Totally Flat: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...5-totally-flat
            Plumber's Delight: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...notech-winners
            Linehopper: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...Esoteric-build

            Comment


            • #68
              Finally got my judging sheets today!

              Over $300, SP 44 Waveguide Omni:

              Category: Judge 1,2,3
              Clarity: 9 , 10 , 9
              Craftsmanship: 10 , 10 , 10
              Dynamic Range: 10 , 9 , 8
              Originality / Design: 10 , 10 , 10
              Soundstage / Imaging: 9 , 10 , 7
              Tonal Balance: 9 , 9 , 7

              Total , Average: 166 , 9.22

              Judge 1
              T1: Good image - deep. Bass good
              T2: Great vocal. Great dynamics. Overall, great. Back up singers clear
              T3: Voice big
              Overall: Really Nice!! Thanks!!

              Judge 2
              Low bass good. Sense of depth & image good. Transients good. Strings good. Dynamics good
              Good detail on female voices. Male voice good. Good inflections (my guess, can't read for sure), Instruments very natural.

              Judge 3
              T1: --- Nice bass response, good soundstage
              T2: --- Sound a little forward, tonal bal? Nice bass impact
              T3: --- Good bass impact, texture - Open soundstage, but lacking center image
              Overall: Really Fun, thx Dan!

              My thoughts: I'm not sure the judging room shape/size and/or treatments worked the best for a speaker with a lot of off axis radiation that factors into the tonal balance. Perhaps the room size was about half what it needed to be. The speakers were setup quite close to the side walls and reflections were not likely delayed enough to separate from first arrival sound. I also wonder if Charlie is right about it being better to have a dead back wall but live front and first portion of side walls. I can say for sure there is no lack of center image in my home setup.
              Dan N.

              Comment


              • ugly woofer
                ugly woofer commented
                Editing a comment
                Nice job Dan. I believe that Charlie is correct the room needs a little help, there is more absorption than a normal room. Does anyone listen in a room with curtains covering every wall?

              • dlneubec
                dlneubec commented
                Editing a comment
                Thanks, Nick! My room is part of a pretty open floor plan, not all enclosed walls and has a partially vaulted ceiling. I have just one set of curtains over a sliding glass door, carpet and upholstered furniture. Of course, it is impossible to have the perfect room in an event like this and I certainly applaud the effort. Ideally I think it could stand to be both larger and have less absorption.

            • #69
              PE please invite Nelson Pass to MWAF...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K69_SGWPNw
              John H

              Synergy Horn, SLS-85, BMR-3L, Mini-TL, BR-2, Titan OB, B452, Udique, Vultus, Latus1, Seriatim, Aperivox,Pencil Tower

              Comment


              • #70
                Originally posted by jhollander View Post
                PE please invite Nelson Pass to MWAF...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K69_SGWPNw
                Nelson is a very entertaining guy. If you want to see him up close and personal, I suggest you travel to his "home event", Burning Amp:
                https://www.diyaudio.com/community/t...-world.385333/
                https://burningampfestival.com/

                Sorry to be a buzzkill, but IMHO there is little to no chance that he is going to accept an invitation to come here. He is happy as a clam out at Sea Ranch.
                Charlie's Audio Pages: http://audio.claub.net

                Comment


                • #71
                  At this point in time it's been more than 2 weeks since the event. I thought there was going to be some kind of event recap or writeup or whatever done by the PE people - you know, to formally announce the winners, show all the professional pics taken of the speakers, and with some snippets from the ad hoc interviews that were conducted outside the Jam Room. I was really looking forward to seeing it. Was this already released somewhere?
                  Charlie's Audio Pages: http://audio.claub.net

                  Comment


                  • #72
                    Sorry Charlie, I think this is all you're gonna get. Thanks Bill S for your awesome pictures.
                    Craig

                    I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.

                    Comment


                    • 4thtry
                      4thtry commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Your Welcome, Craig!

                  • #73
                    Usually, there is a followup article in a sales flyer or Sound Solutions issue, and the projects get posted on the Showcase/Gallery that were requested or allowed. The SDC website this year had photos of winners and projects scrolling by.

                    I think it will be seen but slowly released.
                    Wolf
                    "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                    "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                    "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                    "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                    *InDIYana event website*

                    Photobucket pages:
                    https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

                    My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                    Comment


                    • #74
                      Have not seen an official posting yet. A few years back Mattp started a thread for posting pictures of all the speakers at the show. If there is interest, I could post a short description and pictures of some of the other speakers that I photographed as well.

                      https://techtalk.parts-express.com/f...lts-are-posted
                      SideTowers: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...corundum-build
                      Totally Flat: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...5-totally-flat
                      Plumber's Delight: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...notech-winners
                      Linehopper: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...Esoteric-build

                      Comment


                      • jhollander
                        jhollander commented
                        Editing a comment
                        That brought back memories.

                    • #75
                      Has anyone else who brought a speaker design to the competition no received their score sheets in the mail? I have not received mine yet and I’m thinking they got got lost in the mail.

                      Thanks,
                      Shawn

                      Comment

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