Receivers Kicking Off On Thermal Overload

[Flacjunky]

I have two main listening rigs.

My Mancave Setup: https://imgur.com/gallery/OloqZzq

That I built back in 2010 or so. Basically E-Wave variant mains with a crossover designed by Shumacher and Zilch. And some MTM surrounds designed by JohnnyRichards. With a couple RSS390HFs on the bottom end. Muscle is provided by a Harmon Kardon 3600.

My More Modest Shop Setup: https://imgur.com/gallery/Dx7RSgl

A pair of kinda Carmody Tarkus powered by a Denon 930H and a single 12" down below.

I think both system are designed for about 6 Ohms.

At any rate, getting around to my point. 99% of time I listen to these at moderate volume levels without any issues. But there are a couple times a year that I like to knock the dust off the drivers ....... I'm sure most of you here can relate.

Now when I do that with my mancave setup ........ And I'm talkin' wide open, everything its got ..... it can saturate your self-preservation instincts and then some ....... with no issues. I have kicked the HK off on overload before, but it took some doing. It has to be the right source material really, such as the beginning of Billy Jean.

The Denon in the shop however ......... can only pump out the thrills for a couple of songs before it goes dark. Which somewhat infuriates me when I'm trying to drown out the sound of a table saw..

So here's my problem. I've been out of the Receiver buying knowledge loop for too many years now. But since the AVR in the mancave is showing its technological age and I might be needing to update to HDMI 2.1 soon to run HDR through it to a potential new TV, I've starting to gather data on my future receiver options.

First thing I've noticed is a lot of brands have quit making AVRs (HK) and the industry seems to be consolidating and contracting perhaps due to higher end commercial sound bars being good enough for most consumers, I dont really know.

But the relatively poor high volume performance of the Denon it the shop has colored my opinion.

So what should I be looking for in a replacement mancave AVR that reduces the likelihood of it getting scared in the middle of Dragon Attack?

Is this a problem that the more expensive 125+ WPC units can fix? Or do some brands tend to play it safer than others?

[billfitzmaurice]

Open up the Denon and vacuum it. Chances are the heat sinks are coated with sawdust. Where an HDMI AVR is concerned there's nothing to be gained with HDMI other than allowing it to be used with new gear that demands it. FWIW I don't slave my TV from my AVR, I have it the other way around. Doing so allows me to use a light pipe to supply the AVR audio feed, eliminating that pathway as a potential for ground looping. The main advantage to a new AVR would be the ability to tie it and the TV together on the same remote.

[Flacjunky]

Tha'ts good advice about the Denon. It almost certainly has dust on the heat sinks, even though I blow it out regularly. But it as kicked off on high volumes since the day I took it out of the box.

All my source material, audio and video, is via PC. HDMI is the only pipe to the AVR that has the bandwidth to allow me to bitstream high resolution multichannel audio over WASAPI. And most of the newer video cards only come with 1 HDMI out, the rest being DisplayPort, which AVRs and TVs have not adopted. I guess I could convert that to HDMI to connect as you suggest. In fact I will have to do that if I want to run HDR to a new TV and not replace the HDMI 1.7 HK AVR. I running everything through a old , now irreplaceable, Harmony One remote.

[Flacjunky]

That's good advice about the Denon. It almost certainly has dust on the heat sinks, even though I blow it out regularly. But it as kicked off on high volumes since the day I took it out of the box.

All my source material, audio and video, is via PC. HDMI is the only pipe to the AVR that has the bandwidth to allow me to bitstream high resolution multichannel audio over WASAPI. And most of the newer video cards only come with 1 HDMI out, the rest being DisplayPort, which AVRs and TVs have not adopted. I guess I could convert that to HDMI to connect as you suggest. In fact I will have to do that if I want to run HDR to a new TV and not replace the HDMI 1.7 HK AVR. I running everything through a old , now irreplaceable, Harmony One remote.

[Paul O]

But it as kicked off on high volumes since the day I took it out of the box.

That means it is not really capable of driving the speaker load you have on it. But instead of replacing it why not just insert a dedicated power amp... assuming the AVR has main pre outs.

[djg]

My Outlaw Audio Model 2200 monoblocks, "Never give up, never surrender".

[devnull]

Why not build a fan tray for he shop rcvr to sit on? Use a simple switch to turn it on manually when the volume gets turned up....

[Flacjunky]

Great idea. I have a couple new Noctua 140mm sitting around.

The receiver might even have a 12v out on the back.

Sit on? ....... I would have thought the fan should be on top of the receiver, sucking the heat out and up.

[devnull]

A fan pulling air will pull it from areas of least resistance. A fan blowing will allow you to direct the air where you want it to go. As an example, feel the air flow 4 feet behind a window fan, now feel it 4 feet in front of the fan. If you don't have a nice clear path to the hot spots blowing from below, put the fans on top of the rcvr and blow down at the hot spots. The fans are going to move a lot more air than convective cooling. Since it's in your shop might even cut up a cheap furnace filter to keep dust and crud out of the fans and rcvr

[dynamo]

I think something else is wrong. Assuming the receiver is not broken, It seems like an overcurrent issue (low impedance / improper crossover design) or incorrectly wired crossover, if you are heating that receiver so much in a few songs that it shuts down.

Paul is a competent designer and in looking at the impedance chart for the Tarkus and it looks like a pretty friendly load. I see your description says “KINDA Carmody Tarkus”. Is it a Tarkus or your own design based on the Tarkus concept? Either way I’d double check your crossover wiring and see if the dats sweep matches Pauls (if it is a Tarkus) or your sim, and if your own design post up the crossover schematic and dats sweep / impedance sim for us to take a look at.

I am suspecting that there are some low impedance spots in high music energy regions, probably combined with nasty phase angles.

Some amps just tolerate those things better than others. Before I even heard of crossover design software I built some massive 15” floor stander 3-ways with an off the shelf crossover. I can’t even imagine how nasty that impedance/phase was.. I had a new 2 channel Kenwood receiver that would shut down all the time when driven hard (not even getting that hot..). Replaced it with a new 100x2 onkyo and that thing never shut down even with the loudness control on. The kenwood was fine but could not tolerate it. My band aid was a much beefier amp, but knowing what I know now the solution was likely in the crossover design. I also am willing to bet your denon has more current capability than my kenwood did, but not what that onkyo could do. So short story is you probably will be able to find something to do what you want but may not need to.

[Flacjunky]

Is it a Tarkus or your own design based on the Tarkus concept?

Well, as you can see in the photos I posted above: https://imgur.com/gallery/Dx7RSgl

Its Paul's Driver recommendations and crossover design verbatim, but in wall mounted sealed cabinets. I'm sure they sound nothing like what Paul voiced. But those were my architectural constraints.

This, the shop setup, was never intended to be a critical listening setup ....... it was just something cheap I could throw together while in the middle of my otherwise expensive shop build: https://imgur.com/gallery/FaiUiW8

They have far exceeded my expectations. The Denon AVR was on the cheap side as well. I wasn't going to put anything expensive in that dusty shop environment.

Bottom line here is, the Denon only crashes when I have it cranked up very high .......perhaps too high....... something I rarely ever do. But it does crash every time I turn it up very high, then I go into my other main (E-Wave) setup and it can take anything I can throw at it ....... but E-waves are basically pro-sound drivers too. They're designed for higher power levels than I can produce with a consumer AVR spread across 7 channels.

So I'd hate to see you invest too much thought or time diagnosing my problem, when its really not a problem I cant live with.

I'm not really looking to fix the Denon problem as much as I want to make sure that my next mancave receiver has some spine.

You really addressed my main question here when you mentioned how bulletproof the Amp was in the Onkyo.

I too think the best sounding receiver at high volumes I ever had was a heavy Onkyo. Too bad I had to throw it away due to a bad HDMI board.

I've been lightly researching my next receiver and right now I'm pretty infatuated with Sony's new 2023 ES line. But you never know how it sounds until you get it home and connected. I like the brightness of my past Oynko and Sony receivers. I have a spare Yamaha laying around as well for emergencies only.

My problem is really I'm gonna need HDMI 2.1 to connect my PC, AVR, and TV together the way I prefer, and when I buy a new AVR I want it to have plenty muscle. I imagine any of the top brands will scratch that itch if I'm willing to get one of the more expensive 120W+ flavors.

[dynamo]

You may be better off getting something with preouts and a pro amp.

Also, it’s worth noting my Onkyo was circa 1998ish. I highly doubt the new models are anything like it. It was a beast. I believe it was a TX-8511. The loudness control I was talking was something they called selective tone control. Really enhanced the bass.

[djg]

AVSforum has tons of info and discussion on about any AVR. It may be cheaper to do a separate power amp than to buy a new AVR with enough guts to not ever sign off.

[dynamo]

Yeah I agree with djg, you play loud so get something with preouts and a small crown amp and don’t look back.

That said I still don’t think the tarkus impedance profile should shut down any properly functioning avr that quick so maybe just double check your crossover connections (I have miswired crossovers more than once myself).