Advice on new tower speakers

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  • Froste
    Senior Member
    • Jun 2008
    • 772

    Advice on new tower speakers

    Current I have a set of Pioneer CS-J725 (4-way, with 2-8" woofers, 2" Mid, 2" tweeter, 2-2" ports).
    Now that I have the DIY speaker bug, I'm thinking of replacing these J725's with one of the following (want to stay in the 9.5" range for front):

    1) ZDT35
    2) VHT
    3) Millennium3 (somewhat modified to 9.5" wide)
    4) Make my own design using Pioneer drivers from PE.
    5) Just upgrade the XO in the J725's.

    Any advice on which might be my best option to replace my J725's whould be a big help. I have had these speakers for about 20 years and have really enjoyed them, they reproduce sound better than any bought speakers I have listened to so far at any price range. Yet now that I have built a new CC, that is better than any thing I could buy, I want to see if I can improve my front speakers.

    Thanks.:D
    Ed
    ___________________________________________
    If "IFs" and "BUTs" were candy and nuts, everyday would be Christmas!
    _____________________________________________
    My WebSite
  • JustinG
    Seasoned Veteran
    • Apr 2007
    • 1054

    #2
    Re: Advice on new tower speakers

    Originally posted by Froste
    Current I have a set of Pioneer CS-J725 (4-way, with 2-8" woofers, 2" Mid, 2" tweeter, 2-2" ports).
    Now that I have the DIY speaker bug, I'm thinking of replacing these J725's with one of the following (want to stay in the 9.5" range for front):

    1) ZDT35
    2) VHT
    3) Millennium3 (somewhat modified to 9.5" wide)
    4) Make my own design using Pioneer drivers from PE.
    5) Just upgrade the XO in the J725's.

    Any advice on which might be my best option to replace my J725's whould be a big help. I have had these speakers for about 20 years and have really enjoyed them, they reproduce sound better than any bought speakers I have listened to so far at any price range. Yet now that I have built a new CC, that is better than any thing I could buy, I want to see if I can improve my front speakers.

    Thanks.:D
    If this is your first design I'd do on of the first 3 someone just did the ZDT35 and did a great job. Unless you have measuring equipment number 4 will be a shot in the dark and though number 5 would give you some results... it would be nothing like building a real DIY speaker.
    -JustinG
    ----------------------------------
    Gear:
    Samsung PN50A650
    Yamaha RX-V2500
    Hafler DH-200
    AC130MKII/BG NEO3PDR Two-Ways
    RS390HF-4 w/ HPSA500

    Comment

    • ---k---
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2007
      • 702

      #3
      Re: Advice on new tower speakers

      I'm biased, but I would go with a pair of these:


      Though, I think these are wider than what you want. :P

      What are your size and budget limits? Do you have links to the VHT and Millennium3? I'm not recalling them quickly.

      I've heard nothing but good things about Zaphs design, so I would keep it in the #1 slot - for now.
      - Ryan

      CJD Ochocinco ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
      CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
      CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
      CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW

      Comment

      • Froste
        Senior Member
        • Jun 2008
        • 772

        #4
        Re: Advice on new tower speakers

        This will be my 5th project, so I have some idea of what I need to do, but XO design and driver selection is hard for me with no testing setup. So following someone else design would be a good choice for me.

        To answer ---k----.

        "Though, I think these are wider than what you want. :P"

        I like your desgin, close to my CC, which is a TWWMTMWWT design.


        However to meet my size needs I would have to use 7" Woofers. Could your design be modified to work with 7"?


        "What are your size and budget limits?"

        Size needs to be around 68"Hx9.5"Wx10-12"D, might be able to make 10"W and 14"D. Budget limit is around $300 for drivers & XO, already have mdf and box making parts.

        "Do you have links to the VHT and Millennium3? I'm not recalling them quickly. "

        Yes, in PEs Showcase.

        Thanks for the info, Let me know if your design could be made to work with a 9.5" front.
        Ed
        ___________________________________________
        If "IFs" and "BUTs" were candy and nuts, everyday would be Christmas!
        _____________________________________________
        My WebSite

        Comment

        • HareBrained
          Seasoned Veteran
          • Jun 2008
          • 1058

          #5
          Re: Advice on new tower speakers

          I'm not speaking from much experience but I have a few observations:

          The VHT uses the Dayton DA drivers, and while great drivers for the money, I don't think they're in the same class as the HiVi or Dayton Ref drivers used in the others designs you're considering.

          I think you're going to have trouble getting the Mil3 to fit within the foot print of 9.5x14. The required increased height might put the MTM too high.

          The ZDT3.5 fits all your criteria, except possibly the desire to design it yourself.

          Personally, I'm at the point where I want to design my own. I figure I can get to about 90% there in SQ via software alone and a WT3. I may buy a mic and some real software in the future and then tweak some more.

          So do you want to build or do you want to design and build?
          - John

          "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Dr. M. L. King
          www.BuildTheDream.org

          Comment

          • Froste
            Senior Member
            • Jun 2008
            • 772

            #6
            Re: Advice on new tower speakers

            To answer your question above, I like the design & build better, and have done real well on my first 5 projects (even if other in this form don't like my designs), But there again I'll like to do someone elses design to see what I might be missing. Plus my current J725s are very good, to replace them I must build something special. I know I can come up with a design of my own that would be good, but without test equipment, the XO part is real hard to get right. My CC project took 9 XO setups before I got close (and still working on it). What might be best for me is to take off from someone's desgin and add my own twist, did that in #4 project a WM/TW fronts with a built in sub.

            The one thing I do like about this form is that I can get all kind of advice, ideas, etc., allowing me to learn much, then go to the workshop and try things out.

            I'm still thinking, and looking for input, Thanks much.
            Ed
            ___________________________________________
            If "IFs" and "BUTs" were candy and nuts, everyday would be Christmas!
            _____________________________________________
            My WebSite

            Comment

            • ---k---
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2007
              • 702

              #7
              Re: Advice on new tower speakers

              Ahhh, the PE showcase! Doh. I was thinking Roman's and didn't see them there.

              No, I don't think the Khans can easily be modified to be narrower.

              Of those, I probably would still be going with the ZDT3.5.

              The RS drivers in the ZDT are better than the DA175 in the VHT. I think
              the woofers in the Millennium3 will be over your budget.
              - Ryan

              CJD Ochocinco ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
              CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
              CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
              CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW

              Comment

              • Chris Roemer
                Obsessed & Proud of It
                • Sep 2005
                • 13476

                #8
                Re: Zaph

                Originally posted by Froste
                To answer your question above, I like the design & build better, and have done real well on my first 5 projects (even if other in this form don't like my designs), But there again I'll like to do someone elses design to see what I might be missing. Plus my current J725s are very good, to replace them I must build something special. I know I can come up with a design of my own that would be good, but without test equipment, the XO part is real hard to get right. My CC project took 9 XO setups before I got close (and still working on it). What might be best for me is to take off from someone's desgin and add my own twist, did that in #4 project a WM/TW fronts with a built in sub.

                The one thing I do like about this form is that I can get all kind of advice, ideas, etc., allowing me to learn much, then go to the workshop and try things out.

                I'm still thinking, and looking for input, Thanks much.
                Since you SEEM to go off contrary to what advice you get, I'm telling you "Do NOT build the Zaph design, you'll absolutely hate it, and it won't be the best speaker you'll ever hear in your life."

                Comment

                • johnastockman
                  Seasoned Veteran
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 5833

                  #9
                  Re: Advice on new tower speakers

                  Originally posted by Froste
                  Current I have a set of Pioneer CS-J725 (4-way, with 2-8" woofers, 2" Mid, 2" tweeter, 2-2" ports).
                  Now that I have the DIY speaker bug, I'm thinking of replacing these J725's with one of the following (want to stay in the 9.5" range for front):

                  1) ZDT35
                  2) VHT
                  3) Millennium3 (somewhat modified to 9.5" wide)
                  4) Make my own design using Pioneer drivers from PE.
                  5) Just upgrade the XO in the J725's.

                  Any advice on which might be my best option to replace my J725's whould be a big help. I have had these speakers for about 20 years and have really enjoyed them, they reproduce sound better than any bought speakers I have listened to so far at any price range. Yet now that I have built a new CC, that is better than any thing I could buy, I want to see if I can improve my front speakers.

                  Thanks.:D

                  Well, my penny's worth is...ZDT 3.5. Using better drivers and John's super knowledge of XO design, it would be the only choice for me out the 5 listed. There will be no comparison between the Zaph design and the Pio's. I've had a lot of the Pioneer, Kenwood, Sony, Yamaha, etc. speakers here (from 2-ways to the floor standing 3, 4, and 5-ways) and listened to them side-by-side with fairly budget-priced DIY designs. And the DIY speakers are not large, multi-driver speakers like the commercial ones. With simple 2-ways and a small sub, the differences are immediately apparent, mostly regarding imaging (much more transparent), sound field depth/width and overall clarity/balance. Which never became noticeable until compared with different speakers. My brother-in-law was totally in love with his large 3-way Cerwin Vegas, the DS-5 IIRC. But he hadn't had an opportunity to compare with any other commercial or DIY designs...until a few months ago. Now he knows the difference and is waiting for budget approval from my sister for a pair of RS 2-ways and a sub. The Vega's will go up on ebay or craigslist.

                  John A.
                  "Children play with b-a-l-l-s and sticks, men race, and real men race motorcycles"-John Surtees
                  Emotiva UPA-2, USP-1, ERC-1 CD
                  Yamaha KX-390 HX-Pro
                  Pioneer TX-9500 II
                  Yamaha YP-211 w/Grado GF3E+
                  Statement Monitors
                  Vintage system: Yamaha CR-420, Technics SL-PG100, Pioneer CT-F8282, Akai X-1800, Morel(T)/Vifa(W) DIY 2-way in .5 ft3
                  Photos: http://custom.smugmug.com/Electronic...#4114714_cGTBx
                  Blogs: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=2003

                  Comment

                  • Froste
                    Senior Member
                    • Jun 2008
                    • 772

                    #10
                    Re: Advice on new tower speakers

                    Chris R.,

                    Ah, I'm not that bad (somewhat hardheaded maybe), I really thought my CC design would look the best in the location I needed to place it, over the wm/tw design.
                    See:

                    Looks good!

                    But I could not stand not knowing if a wm/tw would sound better, so I built one:


                    And it sounds great too, my CC is only alittle better, but I like cheap horns, (something about what I started listening to in the '60s).

                    But to answer you and John A.

                    I am already working on a plan for the ZDt3.5, Looks like I can make it the height I need and could use Ebony Macassar Veneer on it to match Monitor, would be a very nice replacement for my J725s. The only problem I have is the placement of the vent ports, were I want place them, they will be up against a wall and vents would be blocked, this too I think can be worked out.
                    So, Thanks to all, I think this is a done deal now.

                    Just a Note to John A. about the J725s, I have heard these up against other speaker systems, both DIY & high end stuff, and they are the only mid range ($ wise) I've heard that is worth having, they can stand with ones I've heard from a custom maker here in KY that cost over $10k, and yes they were better but not much, the J725s cost $250 (20 years ago). But some of it is that I've been listening to them for 20 years. But its time for them to go to my son or grandson.

                    Much thanks for all the advice.:D
                    Ed
                    ___________________________________________
                    If "IFs" and "BUTs" were candy and nuts, everyday would be Christmas!
                    _____________________________________________
                    My WebSite

                    Comment

                    • johnastockman
                      Seasoned Veteran
                      • Oct 2005
                      • 5833

                      #11
                      Re: Advice on new tower speakers

                      Originally posted by Froste
                      Chris R.,

                      Ah, I'm not that bad (somewhat hardheaded maybe), I really thought my CC design would look the best in the location I needed to place it, over the wm/tw design.
                      See:

                      Looks good!

                      But I could not stand not knowing if a wm/tw would sound better, so I built one:


                      And it sounds great too, my CC is only alittle better, but I like cheap horns, (something about what I started listening to in the '60s).

                      But to answer you and John A.

                      I am already working on a plan for the ZDt3.5, Looks like I can make it the height I need and could use Ebony Macassar Veneer on it to match Monitor, would be a very nice replacement for my J725s. The only problem I have is the placement of the vent ports, were I want place them, they will be up against a wall and vents would be blocked, this too I think can be worked out.
                      So, Thanks to all, I think this is a done deal now.

                      Just a Note to John A. about the J725s, I have heard these up against other speaker systems, both DIY & high end stuff, and they are the only mid range ($ wise) I've heard that is worth having, they can stand with ones I've heard from a custom maker here in KY that cost over $10k, and yes they were better but not much, the J725s cost $250 (20 years ago). But some of it is that I've been listening to them for 20 years. But its time for them to go to my son or grandson.

                      Much thanks for all the advice.:D

                      My Speakerlabs routinely embarrassed speakers that cost more than 10 times what it cost to build them, even factoring in my labor, so I know what you mean. Of course, working in audio all those years has lead me to certain opinions and conclusions...the kind you can only get from behind-the-counter and listening/testing everything that was sold. The most important part was "does the customer like it?" Some folks enjoyed our house-brand; affordable, and could play loud and long. Others wouldn't even consider 'em. Some only wanted a certain brand-name and wouldn't listen to anything else ("my dad had XYZ speakers and he said they were the best"). As long as they were happy, that's what I cared about. I'd always follow up to see if they were satisfied with what they got. And offer an invite to our informal "audio geek" nights on Sundays after the store closed. Not sales oriented, just a chance for folks to bring in their stuff, compare, have it measured, listen to some new music and talk "shop". Yes, my 'labs were there at least twice a month to shame the commercial stuff. The owner was a DIY'er, so he encouraged this type of thing. His first job was at a local Lafayette Electronics before he opened his own stores. Along with retail and DIY speakers, homemade amps and even a homemade turntable would show up once in a while. An employee would bring in his 'lab Super 7 speakers and another built the Speakerlab clone of the Klipsch Corner Horn. The K-horn clones had permanent status at the store...his wife didn't want them in the house, too big and ugly she said!

                      John A.
                      "Children play with b-a-l-l-s and sticks, men race, and real men race motorcycles"-John Surtees
                      Emotiva UPA-2, USP-1, ERC-1 CD
                      Yamaha KX-390 HX-Pro
                      Pioneer TX-9500 II
                      Yamaha YP-211 w/Grado GF3E+
                      Statement Monitors
                      Vintage system: Yamaha CR-420, Technics SL-PG100, Pioneer CT-F8282, Akai X-1800, Morel(T)/Vifa(W) DIY 2-way in .5 ft3
                      Photos: http://custom.smugmug.com/Electronic...#4114714_cGTBx
                      Blogs: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=2003

                      Comment

                      • philiparcario
                        Seasoned Veteran
                        • Aug 2007
                        • 7174

                        #12
                        Re: Advice on new tower speakers

                        Originally posted by johnastockman
                        My Speakerlabs routinely embarrassed speakers that cost more than 10 times what it cost to build them, even factoring in my labor, so I know what you mean. Of course, working in audio all those years has lead me to certain opinions and conclusions...the kind you can only get from behind-the-counter and listening/testing everything that was sold. The most important part was "does the customer like it?" Some folks enjoyed our house-brand; affordable, and could play loud and long. Others wouldn't even consider 'em. Some only wanted a certain brand-name and wouldn't listen to anything else ("my dad had XYZ speakers and he said they were the best"). As long as they were happy, that's what I cared about. I'd always follow up to see if they were satisfied with what they got. And offer an invite to our informal "audio geek" nights on Sundays after the store closed. Not sales oriented, just a chance for folks to bring in their stuff, compare, have it measured, listen to some new music and talk "shop". Yes, my 'labs were there at least twice a month to shame the commercial stuff. The owner was a DIY'er, so he encouraged this type of thing. His first job was at a local Lafayette Electronics before he opened his own stores. Along with retail and DIY speakers, homemade amps and even a homemade turntable would show up once in a while. An employee would bring in his 'lab Super 7 speakers and another built the Speakerlab clone of the Klipsch Corner Horn. The K-horn clones had permanent status at the store...his wife didn't want them in the house, too big and ugly she said!

                        John A.
                        i'd bet those clones had wild crazy dynamics!http://techtalk.parts-express.com/im...lies/smile.gif

                        Comment

                        • johnastockman
                          Seasoned Veteran
                          • Oct 2005
                          • 5833

                          #13
                          Re: Advice on new tower speakers

                          Originally posted by philiparcario
                          i'd bet those clones had wild crazy dynamics!http://techtalk.parts-express.com/im...lies/smile.gif

                          Dynamics was the word! 15" woofer, folded horn with a horm mid and horn tweet. The only speaker they never offered as a pre-built. You had to build your own enclosures from some very detailed plans. I would have liked to build some, but my skills as a woodworker were not up to the challenge of those cabinets. I watched his progress on those boxes...3/4" birch 13 layer plywood with a light stain and poly. One of the few speakers that used a horn mid/tweeter that I enjoyed. No harshness, no forward mids, very well balanced...better than the original Klipsch (which we also had at the store). I lusted after those for years, but he'd never sell them. I wouldn't have either, considering the amount of time that went into them. His craftsmanship was amazing. When the store I worked at finally closed, he put 'em in his basement. They are still there, not hooked up. Since he's married to the same woman, I imagine that's where they will stay. So sad...the surround on the woofer is probably rotted, too.

                          John A.
                          "Children play with b-a-l-l-s and sticks, men race, and real men race motorcycles"-John Surtees
                          Emotiva UPA-2, USP-1, ERC-1 CD
                          Yamaha KX-390 HX-Pro
                          Pioneer TX-9500 II
                          Yamaha YP-211 w/Grado GF3E+
                          Statement Monitors
                          Vintage system: Yamaha CR-420, Technics SL-PG100, Pioneer CT-F8282, Akai X-1800, Morel(T)/Vifa(W) DIY 2-way in .5 ft3
                          Photos: http://custom.smugmug.com/Electronic...#4114714_cGTBx
                          Blogs: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=2003

                          Comment

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