Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

in double blind subjective testing

Double blind?? Haven't you been paying attention? Kapton P, Andy G, dbe and all other such highly informed individuals have dismissed this method as being valid, since it is known to mask what is "heard" using their much more scientific and reliable "just listening" method. Their method is rather inaptly named, but it properly includes such sensory input to the brain as vision, priori knowledge, SPL variance, etc, etc.
I hope you didn't consider the results of your testing valid?

AJ, I'm know you've never said it, but you've never heard people say that all zip cord of equal guage is the same? Now that I find hard to believe.

I guess you didn't catch the sarcasm in my response to your initial statement (dlr usually does). The reason why I asked for a link is the same as when I asked dlr, JeffB, etc. for links to the "Perfect Sound" belief by "engineers" (monolithic). It was mainly to amuse myself. I knew there was no link to your wire statement because it was pure strawman (even now that you have since added gauge). Let's leave the wire stuff for another day(or year) and focus on resistors eh?

A little story. I stumbled onto the resistor thingy a few years ago completely by accident. Unforunately, my conclusions will bother the subjectivists and the objectivists, both. At the time I had an assortment of different makes and values of resistors that I used for crossover designing. Some of them were the same value too. While making an adjustment to a tweeter's level I was making some small, incremental changes in the series padding resistor. At one point I switched from a sandcast resistor to a significantly more expensive noninductive, and the difference was greater than I had anticipated. I found another sandcast the same value as the noninductive and used it and there was an obvious difference between the two. I assumed one of them was off in value so I used an LCR meter to check them and found them to be essentially identical in resistance. However, as I switched back and forth I could tell that there was an obvious difference in the sound coming from the tweeter depending on which one I used. I didn't have the means to do any more detailed measurements at the time - I only know that the character of the sound changed and the resistiance measured the same between them. I could have demonstrated that to anyone and I am sure most of them would have said there was a difference too. It was especially noticable with pink noise, even though the frequency response and tweeter level were, again, essentially identical. The thing was......I thought the cheap sandcast sounded much better, and something about the higher dollar noninductive irritated me and sounded grainy. As a result I never purchased that brand again, and I still have no issue using decent sandcast resistors.

Jeff B.

Bother?? I love anecdotal stories like this . Remember your "hi-end" store vinyl vs cd one with the wife where the saleman played that neat trick? I got quite a kick from that one too.;)
btw, have I mentioned that "objectivist" "subjectivist" is a gross mischaracterization of the parties involved?

Hmmmm That certainly adds another perspective to the debate. My read is that in both cases there was an unidentified factor contaminating the results. I'm not going to believe anything anyone has to say (and that includes anything I have to say) until there have been many, many replications of properly controlled ABX tests. But, as an enforcer of deceptive advetising statutes for over 30 years, I still find it amazing that we aren't placing the substantiation burden on the advertisers, just like we do in any other industry. You're selling expensive resistors? you're claiming they sound better? What is your substantiation? Let's see your theory. Let's see your tests (within reason--I don't want to burden start-up companies with $million "clinical" trials). Dennis

Unfortunately it's not just manufacturers making these claims Dennis. It's "audiophiles". I'm sure the manufacturer(s) of those old russian caps, that are all the rage amongst the "Just listeners", had no clue that they pass the white light of Jesus into your stereo system. Nor would they make such a claim. The burden of proof always lays squarely on the claimer.

poor AJinFLA,
It was meant as advice for those considering, NOT for those with a locked mind.

Well, someone must have left the door unlocked to certain minds. How else would all that silliness have slipped in?;)

I'm sure with your considerable audio experience (lmao) you have ALL the facts on audio at hand. As I said.. lock in mediocrity.

I could point out the logical fallacies in your argument, but it would simply be lost on you.

when you have learnt to listen PAST minor volume differences then perhaps you will understand that not everyone has your lack of insight.
come back in, say, 5 years , and we can discuss things, until then, your pov is (imo) just a waste of time. ! :D

I don't think one needs to learn(t) how to fool oneself if it occurs naturally.
Perhaps you could use the next 5 years to learn something about the brains processing of sensory input? Or perhaps not...

I also find it quite sad for you that you have so little faith in your own hearing that you think everyone else is ruled by pre-concieved ideas.
I, for one, have often heard differences when I didn't expect to, AND, not heard differences when I expected to.

My hearing has nothing to do with your claims, although I understand the need for such strawmen and diversionary tactics of the illogical. Ditto for my ideas.
I again reiterate, that the correct identification of the parties is the uninformed/ignorant vs the informed/educated. Your knowledge of expectation bias highlights this quite nicely. Thank you.;)

Start learning to listen and please, have some faith in yourself. :D

Another fallacy. My inadequacies are obviously not in listening, but rather in seeing, knowing, matching SPL, etc,etc.

Ok, now how many posts are we up to...and still not a shred of data about resistor measurements and audibility? What a surprise..:rolleyes:

cheers,

AJ

[dougjohnson]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I remember the CD wars in the 80's. My conclusion from the time, still unchanged is:

1) The human ear is a very sensitive instrument. It is capable of hearing things we don't know how to measure, or things that we don't know how to relate to things we can measure. Jitter is a good example of the latter.

2) The human ear is a very sensitive instrument. It is capable of hearing things that aren't there.

-- Doug

[davidl]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Ok so it looks like everybody cooled down and stopped being JackA**** to each other so I thought I'd chip in my 2 cents.
I certainly don't see why people are so against double blind ABX tests as it takes all visual and aural clues that might influence the listener out of the equation. Let's face it, if you are able to hear a difference between two components (or so you say) then it should be easy to pick between the two in a double blind ABX test no? If the results show that you picked no better than a normal guess method then in fact you CAN'T hear a difference between the two components.
This is why it has me wondering about some of the speaker events that are judged by not only listening to the speaker in question but also SEEING it at the same time. Don't you think that visual clues influence your expectations of how it might sound? Let's say there are two speakers with identical drivers and crossovers and cabinet shape and the only difference is the cabinet's looks. One is a plain old MDF box that hasn't been painted or finished and looks like someone spilled their coffee down one side and the other is a beautifully finished cabinet with exotic wood veneer and a glossy multicoat finish to it. I would be willing to bet that most people would pick the beautiful looking speaker as sounding better even if they both measure the same. The same thing goes for amplifiers (as long as they are operating within their specs and not distorting). Would you still prefer to listen to a Krell amp instead of an Onkyo if you couldn't see which amp it was that was playing? Of course level matching to within 1/2 db is important so you don't choose the louder amp as being better.
I'm thinking that people WANT something to sound different or better and to them it does so. It's called faith and belief and wishful thinking. How many of you after building their first speaker and listening to it thought it was fantastic? It was only later that you discovered the highs were somewhat too elevated and got on your nerves or you accidentally had one of the woofers connected in reverse polarity or any number of things that weren't quite right from the beginning.
I will never forget when Speaker Builder Magazine was still in publication that they covered A&S Speakers ( a now defunct California speaker parts company similar to Parts Express) speaker building contest for a few years and one year the winner in the 2 way competition had his speakers reviewed the next month in Speaker Builder. Now this was a simple 6 1/2 inch mid/woofer with a 1 inch tweeter and it had beat out all competition for top honors in it's category. Upon measuring the frequency response, it was very evident that there was a major suckout right around the crossover frequency in not just one but both speakers. The culprit was the builder had the tweeters connected in reverse polarity. Simply fixing that problem made the response look and sound so much better. Now this was the speaker that won first place and the judges thought it sounded better than all the rest. So much for the ability of the human ear to always know what it's really hearing hmmm?
Wanting something to sound different or better is human nature but lets be sure exactly what it is we are hearing if anything.

[critofur]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Critofur,

Let Your Ears Decide.

Take your best headphones and your best headphone amp. Get a simple high current, low contact resistance, DPDT switch. Select two each, Mills resistors and sand cast resistors, non-inductive or just plain sand cast resistors that have a resistance approximately equal to the impedance of your headphones. Wire up the resistors to the four outside poles of the switch; one stereo pair for each side using the same resistor type. Then wire the resistors up to a headphone plug and the center contacts of the switch to a headphone jack. Solder everything securely.

Then listen away; try pink noise, tones, and various music of your preference while toggling back and forth and see what you hear. Let someone else flip the switch without you looking and see if you can hear a difference.

Louis

Thanks for the suggestion. I will have to be very careful to be sure that I can find a pair of resistors w/exactly the same resistance to do this test...

The best headphones I have are AKG K340, but, I don't have a good headphone amp. I suppose I might build one, if the parts can be had for a few $?

[Jonathan Anspach]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Hmmmm That certainly adds another perspective to the debate. My read is that in both cases there was an unidentified factor contaminating the results. I'm not going to believe anything anyone has to say (and that includes anything I have to say) until there have been many, many replications of properly controlled ABX tests. But, as an enforcer of deceptive advetising statutes for over 30 years, I still find it amazing that we aren't placing the substantiation burden on the advertisers, just like we do in any other industry. You're selling expensive resistors? you're claiming they sound better? What is your substantiation? Let's see your theory. Let's see your tests (within reason--I don't want to burden start-up companies with $million "clinical" trials). Dennis

So why aren't you placing the substantiation burden on the advertisers? Too small a problem?

Never mind, you answered the question below.

[Jeff B.]

Re: A little story

And there, my friend (Really! Not the wishy-washy John McCain kind of friend) you have it. System compatibility. It is whatever floats the system boat you are sailing in. Point is that you tried it and came to your own conclusions (delusions?). It is the pontifications of stasis that really get to me, know what I mean?

Be well,

Dave

Oh, and the resistor I was referring to wasn't a Mills, it was a different brand. I should also add that I can't tell a difference in sound between my sandcasts and the Eagle noninductives I typically use, but I like the heavier leads better on the Eagles. What I described above only involved this one resistor type.

[Andy_G]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

This is what I mean by "people you trust".
People who have actually done it, and LISTENED !

NOT people who exist SOLELY in a world of measurement.

[dbe]

Re: A little story

A little story. I stumbled onto the resistor thingy a few years ago completely by accident. Unforunately, my conclusions will bother the subjectivists and the objectivists, both. At the time I had an assortment of different makes and values of resistors that I used for crossover designing. Some of them were the same value too. While making an adjustment to a tweeter's level I was making some small, incremental changes in the series padding resistor. At one point I switched from a sandcast resistor to a significantly more expensive noninductive, and the difference was greater than I had anticipated. I found another sandcast the same value as the noninductive and used it and there was an obvious difference between the two. I assumed one of them was off in value so I used an LCR meter to check them and found them to be essentially identical in resistance. However, as I switched back and forth I could tell that there was an obvious difference in the sound coming from the tweeter depending on which one I used. I didn't have the means to do any more detailed measurements at the time - I only know that the character of the sound changed and the resistiance measured the same between them. I could have demonstrated that to anyone and I am sure most of them would have said there was a difference too. It was especially noticable with pink noise, even though the frequency response and tweeter level were, again, essentially identical. The thing was......I thought the cheap sandcast sounded much better, and something about the higher dollar noninductive irritated me and sounded grainy. As a result I never purchased that brand again, and I still have no issue using decent sandcast resistors.

Jeff B.

And there, my friend (Really! Not the wishy-washy John McCain kind of friend) you have it. System compatibility. It is whatever floats the system boat you are sailing in. Point is that you tried it and came to your own conclusions (delusions?). It is the pontifications of stasis that really get to me, know what I mean?

Be well,

Dave

[caleb]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Framus,

I should clarify that I was not trying to dissuade anyone from trying more expensive resistors. In fact I value user feedback in most buying decisions and prefer it over marketing distortion and fluff. Maybe equating this discussion with "the god particle" is a stretch or fly's to high. Then again the 6.4 billion dollar Large Hadron Collider proves that documenting something you believe is there can be very expensive.

[Ludo]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Critofur,

Let Your Ears Decide.

Take your best headphones and your best headphone amp. Get a simple high current, low contact resistance, DPDT switch. Select two each, Mills resistors and sand cast resistors, non-inductive or just plain sand cast resistors that have a resistance approximately equal to the impedance of your headphones. Wire up the resistors to the four outside poles of the switch; one stereo pair for each side using the same resistor type. Then wire the resistors up to a headphone plug and the center contacts of the switch to a headphone jack. Solder everything securely.

Then listen away; try pink noise, tones, and various music of your preference while toggling back and forth and see what you hear. Let someone else flip the switch without you looking and see if you can hear a difference.

Louis

[Andy_G]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

poor AJinFLA,

It was meant as advice for those considering, NOT for those with a locked mind.

I'm sure with your considerable audio experience (lmao) you have ALL the facts on audio at hand. As I said.. lock in mediocrity.

when you have learnt to listen PAST minor volume differences then perhaps you will understand that not everyone has your lack of insight.

come back in, say, 5 years , and we can discuss things, until then, your pov is (imo) just a waste of time. ! :D

I also find it quite sad for you that you have so little faith in your own hearing that you think everyone else is ruled by pre-concieved ideas.
I, for one, have often heard differences when I didn't expect to, AND, not heard differences when I expected to.

Start learning to listen and please, have some faith in yourself. :D

[framus]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

It seems to me that even with measurements that showed the difference between resistors on paper the specs would never justify the price difference in the minds of most. This being the case there is no incentive from a marketing POV for the cost/scale of research it would take to document the disparity. Consequently why would a manufacture want to mess with all that when word of mouth is free? Whatever difference there is, its not like proving the The Higgs boson or maybe it is, depends on your spiritual speaker philosophy.

Well, I guess it depends on whether they think they have a legal obligation. I don't think I'm giving anything away when I say the FTC isn't likely to enter this particular debate. I'm sure taxpayer dollars would be better spent enforcing deception laws in markets where buyers are a little less obsessed and are buying products a little closer to everyday essentials, like food and housing. But that still doesn't mean you shouldn't be dubious of claims that aren't backed up by a reasonable basis.

[caleb]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

It seems to me that even with measurements that showed the difference between resistors on paper the specs would never justify the price difference in the minds of most. This being the case there is no incentive from a marketing POV for the cost/scale of research it would take to document the disparity. Consequently why would a manufacture want to mess with all that when word of mouth is free? Whatever difference there is, its not like proving the The Higgs boson or maybe it is, depends on your spiritual speaker philosophy.

[framus]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Hmmmm That certainly adds another perspective to the debate. My read is that in both cases there was an unidentified factor contaminating the results. I'm not going to believe anything anyone has to say (and that includes anything I have to say) until there have been many, many replications of properly controlled ABX tests. But, as an enforcer of deceptive advetising statutes for over 30 years, I still find it amazing that we aren't placing the substantiation burden on the advertisers, just like we do in any other industry. You're selling expensive resistors? you're claiming they sound better? What is your substantiation? Let's see your theory. Let's see your tests (within reason--I don't want to burden start-up companies with $million "clinical" trials). Dennis

[romanbednarek]

Re: A little story

A little story. I stumbled onto the resistor thingy a few years ago completely by accident. Unforunately, my conclusions will bother the subjectivists and the objectivists, both. At the time I had an assortment of different makes and values of resistors that I used for crossover designing. Some of them were the same value too. While making an adjustment to a tweeter's level I was making some small, incremental changes in the series padding resistor. At one point I switched from a sandcast resistor to a significantly more expensive noninductive, and the difference was greater than I had anticipated. I found another sandcast the same value as the noninductive and used it and there was an obvious difference between the two. I assumed one of them was off in value so I used an LCR meter to check them and found them to be essentially identical in resistance. However, as I switched back and forth I could tell that there was an obvious difference in the sound coming from the tweeter depending on which one I used. I didn't have the means to do any more detailed measurements at the time - I only know that the character of the sound changed and the resistiance measured the same between them. I could have demonstrated that to anyone and I am sure most of them would have said there was a difference too. It was especially noticable with pink noise, even though the frequency response and tweeter level were, again, essentially identical. The thing was......I thought the cheap sandcast sounded much better, and something about the higher dollar noninductive irritated me and sounded grainy. As a result I never purchased that brand again, and I still have no issue using decent sandcast resistors.

Jeff B.

Just out of curiousity and a follow up to a post I made earlier... would you have had to make any crossover adjustments in order to compensate for either of the resistor's traits and still get the same level of neutrality in terms of tonal balance?