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Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

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  • #31
    Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

    Originally posted by philiparcario View Post
    the answer is yes high watt inductive resistors can roll off the top end. of course most crossovers dont use 50 watt resistors or 5 10 watt resistors. I agree that the mills and eagle resistors are better made. here is a link to a 2 ohm 50 watt resistor that will roll your tweeter off.


    http://www.newark.com/vishay-dale/rh...tor/dp/01F9897

    this has an inductance of .22mh it will start to roll off at 5700hz, but using a 50 2 ohm resistor like this in a tweeter network is not a common thing to do.

    Using a 10 watt 2 ohm inductive resistor
    the mH is .04 ROLLOFF STARTS AT 31000hz. So if you are going to have issues with rolloff it looks like high powered tweeters needing very large powerhandling resistors would need the noninductive resistors. Since it is likely to be progear using large powerhandling mills are tougher then daytons.
    If you need that higher power handling, couldn't you just parallel up standard wirewounds of appropriate values? For 2 Ohms/ 50 Watts you'd use five 10 Ohm/ 10 Watt resistors. Their inductances as well as resistances would be in parallel, and should thus drop to insignificance.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

      I can't say anything definitive about Mills vs brand X, but here are a couple of points to consider -

      When CD players first arrived, we were told they all would sound the same, and that they were perfect. But they didn't, and they don't, and for a long time most of us could hear differences but not ascribe a reason. Many generations of D/A conversion later, upsampling schemes, jitter and all sorts of other factors have led to real improvements in sound quality. At one time these were not quantifiable parameters - now they are unequivocal. My Mag/Philips 1st gen does not sound like a Cambridge.

      All transistor amps sound the same - yeah, right. At one time overuse of feedback correction used to reduce test numbers made for some sonic underacheivers. The whole alphabet soup of amp topologies has in some instances a noticable sonic signature while measuring "flat". Over time characteristics other than a THD on the order of the square root of nada have shown to be more relevant to sonic acheivment. Back when, dynamic headroom, damping factor, slew rate were considered irrelevant, but certainly not now.

      It is hard to believe we have found all the relevant factors to be identified in audio reproduction - even a few years back something as simple as the dispersion and power response of various orders of XOs was not a big deal and recently a consensus formed that the desirability of second order acoustic slopes is due largely to just that. It's a great thing that among us are those that go after things they "hear" - some of their sluething will be dead ends and some bear fruit. We are all in debt to those that consider "good enough is not as good as it gets". My car has a gas pedal and a brake pedal and needs both.

      Now I am not about to buy overpriced Lincoln logs to eliminate dielectric smear from my polyester carpets or spend a grand on an Amish blessed hunk of Maple to kill vibration in my electronics, BUT... If I am going to spend between 10 and 1000 hours (pick your spot) on a design and build to enjoy my music for a few years I couldn't stand to sit on the couch hearing the gremlin saying " you're right, spending a couple bucks extra to maybe make Linda Rondstat and Anne Savoy sound better would've been silly!" We all choose where to draw our own line in the sand
      When you run make sure you run,
      to something not away from, cause lies don't need an aeroplane to chase you anywhere.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

        Originally posted by dbe View Post
        I just had to pull the pin on the grenade and roll it into the room...
        Curt's Speaker Design Works

        "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
        - Aristotle

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

          I agree with you guys that different components (electrical gear) sound different as I have done my share of swapping tuners, amps, cd players, etc. and I've heard differences that I wasn't expecting.

          But what makes these Mills resistors sound better? And if there truly is something behind their better sonic properties then why doesn't the manufacturer provide some data why this could be so and tout the heck out of it! Just show me one convincing measurement or graph, and I'd gladly pay the extra money.

          Kind of reminds me of those little fans you used to be able to buy to put in your intake manifold to increase gas mileage; are those still around?

          Louis

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

            Hi Biff

            Originally posted by biff View Post
            When CD players first arrived, we were told they all would sound the same, and that they were perfect.
            By whom? Please link a direct quote of who stated this. I was in an EE program at that time. No class in my curriculum taught that. Has this changed?
            Are you sure that you are not confusing the science that is taught from high school onwards, with advertisements made by manufacturers?

            Originally posted by biff View Post
            But they didn't, and they don't, and for a long time most of us could hear differences but not ascribe a reason. Many generations of D/A conversion later, upsampling schemes, jitter and all sorts of other factors have led to real improvements in sound quality. At one time these were not quantifiable parameters - now they are unequivocal. My Mag/Philips 1st gen does not sound like a Cambridge.
            If the premise is contrived to begin with, how is it to be met? Jitter is certainly a measurable parameter of CD playback. Jitter also has audibilty thresholds, as do most other measurable parameters. Are you sure that you can ascribe a cause/effect to what you believe you may have heard with early CD players? Can you link me to some data of old vs new? IIRC (tired of searching) there was a DBT with an older vs newer (at the time) player, where listeners could not tell them apart. Does this mean that all CD players have always sounded alike? No. Clearly there can be audible differences. Can be. Not are.

            Originally posted by biff View Post
            All transistor amps sound the same - yeah, right.
            Who said this? Quote? AES Link?

            Originally posted by biff View Post
            At one time overuse of feedback correction used to reduce test numbers made for some sonic underacheivers. The whole alphabet soup of amp topologies has in some instances a noticable sonic signature while measuring "flat". Over time characteristics other than a THD on the order of the square root of nada have shown to be more relevant to sonic acheivment. Back when, dynamic headroom, damping factor, slew rate were considered irrelevant, but certainly not now.
            Lot's of strawmen and little evidence. The actions of a few manufacturers is an indictment of them all? Of science itself? Do you need a link to Cordellaudio?

            Originally posted by biff View Post
            It is hard to believe we have found all the relevant factors to be identified in audio reproduction
            Who is claiming that we have, other than those who like to erect strawmen?

            cheers,

            AJ
            Last edited by ; 01-30-2009, 06:46 PM. Reason: typo

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

              Originally posted by ajinfla View Post
              Hi Biff

              By whom? Please link a direct quote of who stated this. I was in an EE program at that time. No class in my curriculum taught that. Has this changed?
              Are you sure that you are not confusing the science that is taught from high school onwards, with advertisements made by manufacturers?
              He's absolutely correct. It may not have been in your classes at the time. This is what I was referring to in an earlier thread. Don't tell me that I have to post a link, this was in articles, and more often letters to the editor from some respected scientists, that have likely never been put onto the web. It was common in the early years. We're talking in the neighborhood of 20 years ago or more. I threw out those magazines quite some time ago.

              I am an EE myself, read the various audio magazines for years, believed the objective side absolutely for years. Yep, digital was perfect sound forever. Variants on that theme were common, not just in advertising. There was a distinct objective vs. subjective argument for some time. The retailers were early to get into improving the playback. It took more years before the recording studies realized and accepted that the commonly used Sony A/D converter had significantly bad clock jitter. This argument was entirely separate from any based on the analog stages not directly associated with the A/D and D/A conversions.

              As for this thread, I don't get into resistor and wire debates. I've not been able to detect differences other than with large vs. small wire on long runs for wire and only made a cursory experiment with resistors. It's not important enough for me to spend the time.

              There's no doubt to me that early players aren't the equivalent of today's. I kept my original one for about 15 years, using it only as a transport in later years. I've also picked up others' throw aways of old ones over the last few years, playing around with them, some going back to the 80's, swapping out the old opamps in a couple of cases. The sound is without doubt worse using their analog outs, even with new opamps. It's not like differences in resistors.

              Dave
              WinPCD - Windows .NET Passive Crossover Designer

              Dave's Speaker Pages

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                Nope, I don't know enough about SOTA in digital camera technology to speak intelligently on any level. I just know what looks good to me. I guess that makes me a subjectivist when it comes to pik-toors, too. Every time I buy one with more pixels, the pictures get better to these old eyes.

                Oddly enough, I prefer the sound of my CD player @ 44.1 to 96 or 192. It has 8 Burr-Brown DACs running in parallel, a Pacific Microsonics PMD 200 digital filter and they still can't figure out how to divide 192 by 44.1 evenly :D I really do wish they had chosen 88.2 and/or 176.4 as the sampling frequency for higher resolution audio.

                Dave
                "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

                www.piaudiogroup.com

                http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-rmaf...w-technologies
                http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/ramblings.htm
                http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/uber_buss.htm

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                  cheers,

                  AJ

                  *****

                  I think the thing that I appreciate about you the most is the level of wisdom, insight and thoughfulness that you bring to the table in a discussion. You never fail to make me smile. In the realm of predictability I can set my watch by you and your cookie cutter EE 101 responses.

                  I'm sure that your intellectual clone Daryl will chime in soon. The more the merrier, I always say.

                  Isn't using the expression "cheers" after the diatribe above a bit hypocritical, even for you?

                  Your favorite fool,

                  X-X-X
                  O-O-O

                  Dave
                  "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

                  www.piaudiogroup.com

                  http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-rmaf...w-technologies
                  http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/ramblings.htm
                  http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/uber_buss.htm

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                    dBE, how fairs? Nice to read you again, hope all is well. Digital vs film:
                    http://fwd.five.tv/videos/challenge-blow-up-part-3

                    To the original poster: After years expending my education and 10 years of a career obsessing to answer these sorts of audio perception questions, all I can offer is one more opinion: don't sweat it at this stage. Use decent quality normal parts. Once you have the sound you want, start swapping a few parts and decide for yourself, and only if you enjoy the process. For diy audio, even if a placebo brings you enjoyment, its worth it. The worse thing you can do is allow the debate to bring you doubt or tension, its counter productive to enjoying the hobby.

                    You will hear the exact same debates raging 20 years from now.

                    Sometimes we allow our expectation of truthful and helpful 3rd party claims to disconnect us from the joy of audio. You don't need to hold your standards to those we expect from "impartial professional reviewers". Its diy, all that matters is your enjoyment.

                    Its funny how it works. I've heard Apogees over a system that was tweaked and obsessed over, and no doubt the changes brought the owner joy. I don't even doubt he heard the positive changes and could pick them out blindly. Good for him. All I heard over my fresh set of ears was that cheap Vifa woofer!

                    Personally, FWIW (nothing really) I think I hear sand cast resistors, and avoid them. Otherwise use Dale Rh's and Rs's (extremely well made and re-usable) and sleep soundly.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                      Originally posted by DDF View Post
                      Its funny how it works. I've heard Apogees over a system that was tweaked and obsessed over, and no doubt the changes brought the owner joy. I don't even doubt he heard the positive changes and could pick them out blindly. Good for him. All I heard over my fresh set of ears was that cheap Vifa woofer!
                      If you're referring to the Centaurs, only the Majors really sound good to me. They were a favorite of mine (a dealer in Montreal was "selling" them for me on consignment, then declared bankruptcy right after he "sold" them, I got zilch). The woofers definitely were the weak point.

                      dlr
                      WinPCD - Windows .NET Passive Crossover Designer

                      Dave's Speaker Pages

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                        Originally posted by DDF View Post
                        dBE, how fairs? Nice to read you again, hope all is well. Digital vs film:
                        http://fwd.five.tv/videos/challenge-blow-up-part-3
                        All is well here in balmy New Mexico. It will be in the high 50s - low 60's here tomorrow.

                        I just drop in occasionally to stir 'em up. Easy to pull some people's chains and when I've had a particularly bad (or good) day You can find me here. Good to see some of the "old guys" lurk here as well as I.

                        Great advice on the OCD that possess each of us to a degree. I've spent a few years in the 'not gonna tweak it anymore' mode until just recently when I started addressing the crappy A/C we have here. I now have a new RFI/EMI/PFC unit that I've put into a few of the local studios as beta units and will bring it to market in a couple of months.

                        Life just brings small challenges that need to be addressed.

                        Drop me a line on my email occasionally. I so enjoy our talks.

                        Regards,

                        Dave, too
                        "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

                        www.piaudiogroup.com

                        http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-rmaf...w-technologies
                        http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/ramblings.htm
                        http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/uber_buss.htm

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                          Originally posted by dlr View Post
                          If you're referring to the Centaurs, only the Majors really sound good to me. They were a favorite of mine (a dealer in Montreal was "selling" them for me on consignment, then declared bankruptcy right after he "sold" them, I got zilch). The woofers definitely were the weak point.
                          dlr
                          Could be the Slant Sixes or Slant Eights, too. They run out of steam on the bottom and just don't integrate with the panels. They are OK to listen to if you just listen 'to' music and don't do critical listening 'through' them.

                          Gosh, 3 Daves in a row



                          D2
                          "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

                          www.piaudiogroup.com

                          http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-rmaf...w-technologies
                          http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/ramblings.htm
                          http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/uber_buss.htm

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                            Ok, people have presented opinions, thank you. Please pull back a little on the insults - I know a lot of people say a lot of ridiculous seeming things, and, most of us aren't really participating in a debate where we would consider changing our perspectives if given new evidence.

                            But, I've learned what I wanted, thank you again. And, that is: any significant differences that've been enthused by people in various places were, most likely, simply bias. Another but - I am certainly open to trying Mills resistors, even in non-scientific blind test, to see if I can "hear" a difference too.

                            The other thing to bear in mind: resistors in crossovers do sometimes overheat to the point of burning out - so - instead of one 5 Ohm 5 Watt resistor, it couldn't hurt to use a pair of 10 Ohm 10 Watt resistors in parallel?

                            When one of those 5/10 watt non "audio grade" basic Parts Express resistors gets hot enough that it's painfully hot to touch, by how much would you say the resistance would change, compared to when it's room temperature?
                            "...this is not a subwoofer" - Jeff Bagby ;)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                              Christopher must you insist on continuing with these troll like questions?

                              If you want to know what something sounds like buy the damn thing and listen.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                                Originally posted by NoBS View Post
                                Christopher must you insist on continuing with these troll like questions?

                                If you want to know what something sounds like buy the damn thing and listen.
                                BTW, what's your "real" identity, NoBS? I've been wondering about that since you showed up here not long ago, though I suspect one or two...

                                Anyway, Critofur's question doesn't look like a "troll-like" question, at least to me.

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