Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

[DDF]

Re: A little story

A little story..

Jeff B.

Jeff, good input, an excellent counterpoint to the assumed ubiquity of the bias hypothesis. I had the same experience with highly regarded zero capacitance coax interconnects that were all the rage at one point, that I went through significant trouble to procure and build. Awful high end IME.

[Jeff B.]

Re: A little story

Right and make sure you see, know and at least mismatch the volume too. You'll get the desired results much better that way. That are scientifically valid too. Seriously.



You betcha. Pre-bias yourself as much as possible. Trust others who have actually heard and listened while seeing, knowing and fiddling with the volume. You'll get the results that are hidden by DBT's. Never nulls that way eh!!



Yep, we know endless nulls can only mean the tests are hiding the "real" differences that we "know" exist. And how do we "know" this? Well, by seeing, knowing, fiddling with the volume and then "just listening" and "hearing".

http://www.thewiggles.com.au/us/home/

Ummm, sure, if that's what they enjoy, why not?

cheers mate :p,

AJ

A little story. I stumbled onto the resistor thingy a few years ago completely by accident. Unforunately, my conclusions will bother the subjectivists and the objectivists, both. At the time I had an assortment of different makes and values of resistors that I used for crossover designing. Some of them were the same value too. While making an adjustment to a tweeter's level I was making some small, incremental changes in the series padding resistor. At one point I switched from a sandcast resistor to a significantly more expensive noninductive, and the difference was greater than I had anticipated. I found another sandcast the same value as the noninductive and used it and there was an obvious difference between the two. I assumed one of them was off in value so I used an LCR meter to check them and found them to be essentially identical in resistance. However, as I switched back and forth I could tell that there was an obvious difference in the sound coming from the tweeter depending on which one I used. I didn't have the means to do any more detailed measurements at the time - I only know that the character of the sound changed and the resistiance measured the same between them. I could have demonstrated that to anyone and I am sure most of them would have said there was a difference too. It was especially noticable with pink noise, even though the frequency response and tweeter level were, again, essentially identical. The thing was......I thought the cheap sandcast sounded much better, and something about the higher dollar noninductive irritated me and sounded grainy. As a result I never purchased that brand again, and I still have no issue using decent sandcast resistors.

Jeff B.

[DDF]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

It really is an endless debate, is is not. Kind of like : Irony, in itself, is ironic.

:D

Dave

Dave, that's so deep, I think I need trunks (playing off the wiggles joke...)

http://www.yogabbagabba.com/#/aquabats

AJ, I'm know you've never said it, but you've never heard people say that all zip cord of equal guage is the same? Now that I find hard to believe.

The earlier post that RH-50 resistors had 0.22mH inductance had me sweating since I use them in my crossovers. So, I fired up the MLSSA tonight and measured the impedance of a few resistors in the audio band. All inductances are curve fit against a perfect inductor model, from 10 to 20 kHz, and with cross correlation factor shown (r=1.000 being absolutely perfect fit).

Test set-up, straight wire: inductance = 0.000166mH, r = 0.53 (ie it was actually noise as a correlation of 50% = pure chance).

8 ohm Dale RH-50 wire wound: 0.000358mH, R = 0.55. ie immeasurable, just test set noise

10 ohm sand cast (Dale CP-10, 10W) wire wound: 0.00168 mH, R= 0.58

10 ohm Dale CW-10 wire wound, 10W: 0.00407mH

Solen Perfect Lay inductor, 18 guage, 0.2mH: 0.192mH, R=1.000

Solen Perfect Lay inductor, 18 guage, 0.2mH, soldered to 8 ohm Dale RH-50 above in series: 0.194mH, R=1.000

Solen cap. R = 1.000 (as a final validation of the test system)

Good news, even relatively modest wire wounds and sand cast resistors have no inductance. I bought most of these at different surplus stores for less than a buck, so I'd be surprised if parts bought with real money were any worse in this regards.

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Dave#1, thanks for the related data. After hearing arguments that all speaker wire is identical, then measuring for myself the affects that simple wire LAYOUT can even make, it pays to be open minded about these things.

It really is an endless debate, is is not. Kind of like : Irony, in itself, is ironic.

:D

Dave

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

G'day Dave. :D

This is sooooo the reality of the case.

Good to see you getting involved again.

I also am pretty sure I have noticed the difference in resistors. Probably not a difference that could be picked up in a null biased ABX test, but so what.

With all these 'tweaks' one has to use one's common sense and budget. If a person is in a position to try a tweak, then, why not. Science certainly doesn't know everything and those who are stuck with that notion are destined for mediocrity.
There are unfortunately those SO merchants who put forward junk science in support of their products, but anyone with even a little bit of science can generally pick those.

So, if people want to try a tweak, first look at the price vs budget vs possible benefit.

DO.. Try to get a listen somewhere before purchasing.
DO.. Listen to comments of people you trust and who have actually heard and listened.

DO NOT.. take the word of reviews in magazines, they are more often than not 'paid'
and
DO NOT.. discard a tweak based on ABX tests, they are heavily weighted towards a null result.

If that leaves things up in the air, or sitting on the fence.......

Everything you said is spot on.

A guy asks a question and we have this as a result. Not a "suck it and see" response in the lot, eh?

I've always appreciated your tag:

"If people want to listen to wiggles, that up to them....

I prefer music."

Pretty well sums it up, doesn't it?

:D

Dave

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

After hearing arguments that all speaker wire is identical

Who stated this absurdity? Link?

cheers,

AJ

[DDF]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I'm not quite sure how this would be relevant if there isn't an audibilty study to go along with it.

Perhaps someone said the same thing the first time cactus needle touched shellac, but these things have to be taken in measured steps.

First examine the physical phenomenon. Knowing how significant the electrical dynamic compression affects are in drivers due to instantaneous heating, as reported in numerous AES papers, there is precedent to at least create the curiosity to investigate this further. And isn't curiosity the mother of scientific discovery?

When we started designing voice over IP audio, there was so little known about the affects of the impairments present. Little did we know that some voice coders would sound very good with English but be statistical monstrosities in double blind subjective testing, with Eastern European dialog. These surprises have paved the pathway to better sound for decades.

I have a gold mine of scientific subjective test data from that era, some of which we conducted ourselves, but also reams that I took from prior audition studies. Some of it is even related to dynamic noise impairment (not a surprise as we were taking an always on voice application and cutting it into chunks), which has parallels with the impairment discussed here.

I'm curious, and if someone has the data, would like to see if I can find any related testing.

Dave#1, thanks for the related data. After hearing arguments that all speaker wire is identical, then measuring for myself the affects that simple wire LAYOUT can even make, it pays to be open minded about these things.

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

DO.. Try to get a listen somewhere before purchasing.

Right and make sure you see, know and at least mismatch the volume too. You'll get the desired results much better that way. That are scientifically valid too. Seriously.

DO.. Listen to comments of people you trust and who have actually heard and listened.

You betcha. Pre-bias yourself as much as possible. Trust others who have actually heard and listened while seeing, knowing and fiddling with the volume. You'll get the results that are hidden by DBT's. Never nulls that way eh!!

DO NOT.. discard a tweak based on ABX tests, they are heavily weighted towards a null result.

Yep, we know endless nulls can only mean the tests are hiding the "real" differences that we "know" exist. And how do we "know" this? Well, by seeing, knowing, fiddling with the volume and then "just listening" and "hearing".

If people want to listen to wiggles, that up to them

http://www.thewiggles.com.au/us/home/
Ummm, sure, if that's what they enjoy, why not?

cheers mate :p,

AJ

[Andy_G]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

money is better spent on beer.

G'day Dave. :D

This is sooooo the reality of the case.

Good to see you getting involved again.

I also am pretty sure I have noticed the difference in resistors. Probably not a difference that could be picked up in a null biased ABX test, but so what.

With all these 'tweaks' one has to use one's common sense and budget. If a person is in a position to try a tweak, then, why not. Science certainly doesn't know everything and those who are stuck with that notion are destined for mediocrity.
There are unfortunately those SO merchants who put forward junk science in support of their products, but anyone with even a little bit of science can generally pick those.

So, if people want to try a tweak, first look at the price vs budget vs possible benefit.

DO.. Try to get a listen somewhere before purchasing.
DO.. Listen to comments of people you trust and who have actually heard and listened.

DO NOT.. take the word of reviews in magazines, they are more often than not 'paid'
and
DO NOT.. discard a tweak based on ABX tests, they are heavily weighted towards a null result.

If that leaves things up in the air, or sitting on the fence.......

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

It's always refreshing to hear engineers on the front lines debunk a lot of this nonsense. I remember a few years ago a debate about what low quality Toslink connectors were, and how they could audibly degrade the sound. I just had to laugh to myself. At work I was using $40,000 Fore ATM switches that used Toslink connectors. Any dropped or altered bits in those switches would have been a Real Big Deal, but the designers knew there wouldn't be a problem. So much for the ignorant audiophiles.

Hi Jonathan,

Ever seen this? http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-De.../dp/B000I1X6PM

Does anyone have measurements, or links, showing instantaeous temp rise in resistors?

I'm not quite sure how this would be relevant if there isn't an audibilty study to go along with it.
Plus measurements are only relevant to the uninformed crowd if they represent a straw to cling to, that might support a belief. If the measurements fail (as always) to support the belief, then they will be dismissed as insufficient and the old fall back of some yet unknown measured parameter (electro-acoustic) is responsible. Of course fMRI's and anything related to the psychology of acoustics will be completely ignored.
The "heard it" (when I see/know/change volume/etc) crowd tales will continue to be told and accepted as gospel by some.

Now if they simply said, hey, I know there is no evidence of change in the soundfield when I add/change widget X in my system, but it affects what I hear anyway, I enjoy it, but there is no guarantee it will affect your brain (as opposed to stereo system) in the same way.
Well, who could argue with that?

cheers,

AJ

[Ludo]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Which of the links in the search is the one you are refering to?

*****

I just did a basic search in reply to DDF. Reread the reply to him. I read the article a long time ago. I have better things to do than read all of the unrelated references in my search.

*****
Johnson noise in an 8 ohm resistor, at room temp, over a 20kHz bandwidth (unweighted) is 52nV rms. This is 155dB down from 2.83V rms.

*****
Wiki is a great resource, isn't it?

At what input level? I misused the term Johnson noise to include shot noise. Since the two are interrelated I used the term when referring to transients. I should have used shot noise which is exclusive of the Johnson noise and is comprised of current noise. My bad: a brain fart.

*****

Is it possible that this is audible; maybe with bionic hearing?

*****

I'll have to ask my friend, Patti, with the implant. Perhaps she can tell me.

Dave

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see a spec for shot noise in the Mills resistor data sheet? Some of the other resistor manufacturers do provide a current noise spec of xyz uV/V but not Mills. But even if it turned out to be +10dB for one of the low cost Mills alternatives, that's still 110dB down.

I am always open to learn new things, but so far I still don't see the Mills making an audible difference in a x-over; unless the low cost alternatives are simply horrendous noise generators.

Louis

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

At what input level? I misused the term Johnson noise to include shot noise. Since the two are interrelated I used the term when referring to transients. I should have used shot noise which is exclusive of the Johnson noise and is comprised of current noise. My bad: a brain fart.


Dave

http://www.ilorentz.org/beenakkr/mesoscopics/topics/noise/noise.html

Shot noise in resistors is far lower than in the silicon junctions used to process and amplify the signal.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NmD0SD1-1YwC&pg=PA323&lpg=PA323&dq=shot+noise+in+resistor&source=web&ots=9Dy6eeHTov&sig=rveeUQr6eXrX1TL093zliee4L3M&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA325,M1

Page 324. Shot noise is non existent in resistors with no DC current, the norm in XO circuits, with wire wound being the BEST at reducing shot noise.

[Cinemadesigner X]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

John Anspach wrote:

"I just had to laugh to myself. At work I was using $40,000 Fore ATM switches that used Toslink connectors. Any dropped or altered bits in those switches would have been a Real Big Deal, but the designers knew there wouldn't be a problem."

Really, do you really think the transmitter receivers were the same in that peice of equipment as one might find in a $329 sony dvd player? Were the Toslink connectors a glass conductor or plastic, what grade of plastic? What type of LED and what was its drive circuitry, using the parts in the switch no doubt would triple the cost of an above average DVD player.

Toslink systems in consumer products were measured to have marginal bandwidth to carry a PCM digital signal and to be prone to data loss. Not all toslink systems are built to the same standard. Why did I even have to write that?

[curt_c]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Yes to A&B - Instantaneous transients (micro to milliseconds: hence the burst of noise) through high power compression drivers are often in the thousands of watts while operating at sustained levels of 50 to 100 watts.

NO to C - they were all Culver ceramic boats. The company that I was doing the repair for had a huge stock of Culvers - crappy resistors, BTW

D - not so much - it's just physics

No, I'm not. I find the Mills, Ohmite, North Creek, and Huntington Electric wirewounds to be my choices. Pretty much I stay away from bulk metals in loudspeaker applications.

I appreciate that. I wanted more info, too. It didn't exist. Fortunately for me it started a whole bunch of "why and how" experimentation and research on my part. Check out my reply to Dave Ellis above. It is a good place to start.

Ah… Very helpful, Dave. I’ve bookmarked the Vishay articles already, but haven’t read the patent yet. Good information, and thanks for sharing.

C

[Jonathan Anspach]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

well, I was seven years old in the early 80's and I didn't own a CD player until somewhere around 1990 so I missed the whole debate.

You guys are all poopyheads and I have no white papers to back that purely subjective conjecture with so please, just accept my sweeping generalization as a fact. I am a maaintenance man with an AAS in electro-mechanical technology and I have listened to thousands of poopyheads and while they all sound different, they are all poopyheads so there.

Holy cow, I mean it's like we are debating audio properties of something that at normal listening levels probably doesn't matter. It's like discussing saturation of iron core inductors. At normal volumes and power levels is it really a concern? Do resistors in a circuit really get hot enough to change properties at normal listening levels?

I don't know. I got into a debate about wires one night at work with a pair of "audiophiles" who were picking on me for using cheap Dayton interconnects and 12awg zippycord. They used stupid expensive "Transparent" branded stuff. I mentioned that we were running at 99+% repeatability (+/-0.0005mm) on robots using nothing more than Belkin twisted pair cables and grey ribbon cables etc. Oh, and little carbon resistors with a 10% tolerance all over the circuit boards.

FWIW...

It's always refreshing to hear engineers on the front lines debunk a lot of this nonsense. I remember a few years ago a debate about what low quality Toslink connectors were, and how they could audibly degrade the sound. I just had to laugh to myself. At work I was using $40,000 Fore ATM switches that used Toslink connectors. Any dropped or altered bits in those switches would have been a Real Big Deal, but the designers knew there wouldn't be a problem. So much for the ignorant audiophiles.

And yes, anyone who gets sucked into a debate like this is a poopyhead.