Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Ok, people have presented opinions, thank you. Please pull back a little on the insults - I know a lot of people say a lot of ridiculous seeming things, and, most of us aren't really participating in a debate where we would consider changing our perspectives if given new evidence.

But, I've learned what I wanted, thank you again. And, that is: any significant differences that've been enthused by people in various places were, most likely, simply bias. Another but - I am certainly open to trying Mills resistors, even in non-scientific blind test, to see if I can "hear" a difference too.

The other thing to bear in mind: resistors in crossovers do sometimes overheat to the point of burning out - so - instead of one 5 Ohm 5 Watt resistor, it couldn't hurt to use a pair of 10 Ohm 10 Watt resistors in parallel?

When one of those 5/10 watt non "audio grade" basic Parts Express resistors gets hot enough that it's painfully hot to touch, by how much would you say the resistance would change, compared to when it's room temperature?

Well, here's an example. http://www.northcreekmusic.com/OHMITE.html

SPECIFICATIONS:

* 10 Watt Wirewound
* 1% Tolerance
* Overload: 10 Times rated wattage for 5 seconds
* Temperature Coefficient:
1.00 Ohm to 8.06 Ohm
< ± 50 ppm/°C
10.00 Ohm to 221.0 Ohm
< ± 20 ppm/°C

I wouldn't worry about a wirewound getting hot to the touch. Even when water is boiling on them, you'll see less than 1% change in value.

[Ludo]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Ok, people have presented opinions, thank you. Please pull back a little on the insults - I know a lot of people say a lot of ridiculous seeming things, and, most of us aren't really participating in a debate where we would consider changing our perspectives if given new evidence.

But, I've learned what I wanted, thank you again. And, that is: any significant differences that've been enthused by people in various places were, most likely, simply bias. Another but - I am certainly open to trying Mills resistors, even in non-scientific blind test, to see if I can "hear" a difference too.

The other thing to bear in mind: resistors in crossovers do sometimes overheat to the point of burning out - so - instead of one 5 Ohm 5 Watt resistor, it couldn't hurt to use a pair of 10 Ohm 10 Watt resistors in parallel?

When one of those 5/10 watt non "audio grade" basic Parts Express resistors gets hot enough that it's painfully hot to touch, by how much would you say the resistance would change, compared to when it's room temperature?

There's no question these are quality parts, using quality materials, with solid specs, and are subjected to very rigorous stress testing, just don't expect any miracles.

http://www.millsresistor.com/pdf/pg16prn.pdf

Louis

[critofur]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/OHMITE.html

They make a convincing argument for resistors sounding different.

But - is "typically about 400 ppm/°C" really significant?

My skepticism kicks in as my disgust at their overzealous marketing enthusiasm starts to fester: "These are a performance leap over the usual 50¢ sand cast resistor." and "The gritty texture of virtually all sand cast resistors is eliminated via the wirewounds." ???

Before they went over the top, I was thinking to myself "hmm, it's only a few bucks for some of these resistors, worth satisfying my curiosity to try a few" - but - their enthusiasm for the level of improvement strikes me as dishonest.

Searching further (on other web pages) I come accross coments like: "The removal of this inductor opens up the sound - the music flows and blooms better." :eek::eek::eek::rolleyes:

Me troll? Err - I say what I think without thinking if I should say it. Mostly, I'm just too honest, I suppose?

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/OHMITE.html

They make a convincing argument for resistors sounding different.

But - is "typically about 400 ppm/°C" really significant?

My skepticism kicks in as my disgust at their overzealous marketing enthusiasm starts to fester: "These are a performance leap over the usual 50¢ sand cast resistor." and "The gritty texture of virtually all sand cast resistors is eliminated via the wirewounds." ???

Before they went over the top, I was thinking to myself "hmm, it's only a few bucks for some of these resistors, worth satisfying my curiosity to try a few" - but - their enthusiasm for the level of improvement strikes me as dishonest.

Searching further (on other web pages) I come accross coments like: "The removal of this inductor opens up the sound - the music flows and blooms better." :eek::eek::eek::rolleyes:

Me troll? Err - I say what I think without thinking if I should say it. Mostly, I'm just too honest, I suppose?

If you can get past the flowery language directed at the audiophool, and stick with the specs at hand, the Ohmite and North resistors have very low temperature coefficients ( 20 and 50 ppm) and huge surge capability. These are ideal for audio design as their values won't change appreciably with power level.

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

If you can get past the flowery language directed at the audiophool, and stick with the specs at hand, the Ohmite and North resistors have very low temperature coefficients ( 20 and 50 ppm) and huge surge capability. These are ideal for audio design as their values won't change appreciably with power level.

I suppose that after I made the transition from objectiviity to tempered subjectivity I began to approach debates like this with the attitude of: " If there is all of this debate about whether or not something makes an audible improvement (NOT difference) why not expand my realm of experience/education by giving it a try. My gosh, if something only costs a couple of bucks, why noy!?!?

Since listening is a purely subjective experience (I listen with my ears. I measure with a mic) an improvement that makes my listening experience more enjoyable is a good thing. In a high resolution system, low TCR resistors are a good thing IME.

YMMV

Dave

[Guest]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

He's absolutely correct. It may not have been in your classes at the time.

Absolutely correct about what?
That some people don't know/can't tell the difference between science taught in school and slogans concocted by manufacturers marketing departments? I checked the EE curriculum at my school today. Marketing classes still aren't required core or electives. Perhaps in the Business Dept?

Don't tell me that I have to post a link, this was in articles, and more often letters to the editor from some respected scientists, that have likely never been put onto the web. It was common in the early years. We're talking in the neighborhood of 20 years ago or more. I threw out those magazines quite some time ago.

We'll just have to take your word for it.
But you speak for yourself, not everyone. I certainly didn't confuse marketing slogans with scientific reality about stereo illusions.

I am an EE myself, read the various audio magazines for years, believed the objective side absolutely for years. Yep, digital was perfect sound forever. Variants on that theme were common, not just in advertising. There was a distinct objective vs. subjective argument for some time. The retailers were early to get into improving the playback. It took more years before the recording studies realized and accepted that the commonly used Sony A/D converter had significantly bad clock jitter. This argument was entirely separate from any based on the analog stages not directly associated with the A/D and D/A conversions.
There's no doubt to me that early players aren't the equivalent of today's. I kept my original one for about 15 years, using it only as a transport in later years. I've also picked up others' throw aways of old ones over the last few years, playing around with them, some going back to the 80's, swapping out the old opamps in a couple of cases. The sound is without doubt worse using their analog outs, even with new opamps. It's not like differences in resistors.

Dave

Well, you could purchase a random late 80's CD player on ebay or at a pawn shop for next to nothing, then set up a blind comparison at your next DIY, vs a current "known" hi-end model and post the results of attendees, including yourself. Sure would beat conjecture.

I think the thing that I appreciate about you the most is the level of wisdom, insight and thoughfulness that you bring to the table in a discussion. You never fail to make me smile.

Thanks Dave, I really appreciate that. Then the relationship is symbiotic. The entertainment provided by (the likes of) you to me is endless. The thing that I appreciate about you the most is the level of unsubstantiated claims, self delusion and thoughtlessness that you bring to the table in a discussion. Now where is that (non-psychogenic) peer reviewed resistor TCR data?

In the realm of predictability I can set my watch by you and your cookie cutter EE 101 responses.

Thanks. I like the unpredictability of the uninformed ignorant. Their hallucinations run the gamut. I bet your parent's reactions were predictable when you insisted that the monsters you heard under your bed were real, despite their cookie cutter responses.

I'm sure that your intellectual clone Daryl will chime in soon.

I'm not his other brother Daryl. I'm AJ.

Your favorite fool,
Dave

Well at least you can objectively assess one thing. It's a good start.

cheers,

AJ

[ctbowman]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Bad analogy Dave...
Analog photography does not provide infinite resolution, but is limited by the size of the grains of silver iodide. Consequently, by your definition, both digital and analog photography produce 'images'.

I've never read of any correlation between the Thermal Coefficient of Resistance, and the audible qualities of a resistor. Perhaps you'd like to suggest an article or paper that makes that assertion?

C

Beat Me to it, I was going to say the same thing.

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Thanks Dave, I really appreciate that. Then the relationship is symbiotic. The entertainment provided by (the likes of) you to me is endless. The thing that I appreciate about you the most is the level of unsubstantiated claims, self delusion and thoughtlessness that you bring to the table in a discussion. Now where is that (non-psychogenic) peer reviewed resistor TCR data?

Thanks. I like the unpredictability of the uninformed ignorant. Their hallucinations run the gamut. I bet your parent's reactions were predictable when you insisted that the monsters you heard under your bed were real, despite their cookie cutter responses.

I'm not his other brother Daryl. I'm AJ.

Well at least you can objectively assess one thing. It's a good start.

cheers,

AJ

AJ, you may wish to reread this (I know all of the rest of us do):

General Rules (Terms and Conditions) concerning the Parts Express Tech Talk Forum and Blog.

In order to achieve our goals, all participants on the Tech Talk Forum and Blog are required to comply with the following terms and conditions of participation. By simply contributing in this Forum and Blog, you hereby agree to be bound by and the following Terms and Conditions. In the event that any participant fails to comply with these Terms and Conditions, such participant may be denied the right to further access and participate in the Tech Talk Forum and Blog.

1. Do not post any defamatory, libelous, vulgar, obscene, abusive, profane, threatening, hateful, racially, ethnically, or otherwise offensive or illegal information or material.

2. You agree to always treat other people with respect. You will never use information posted to cause harm or appear to cause harm to any person or group of people.

I understand that we all have bad days and tend to take them out on others, but almost every post you make is somehow in violation of decorum and grace. Why are you so filled with vitriol?

Dave

[Jeff B.]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Absolutely correct about what?
That some people don't know/can't tell the difference between science taught in school and slogans concocted by manufacturers marketing departments? I checked the EE curriculum at my school today. Marketing classes still aren't required core or electives. Perhaps in the Business Dept?



We'll just have to take your word for it.
But you speak for yourself, not everyone. I certainly didn't confuse marketing slogans with scientific reality about stereo illusions.



Well, you could purchase a random late 80's CD player on ebay or at a pawn shop for next to nothing, then set up a blind comparison at your next DIY, vs a current "known" hi-end model and post the results of attendees, including yourself. Sure would beat conjecture.



Thanks Dave, I really appreciate that. Then the relationship is symbiotic. The entertainment provided by (the likes of) you to me is endless. The thing that I appreciate about you the most is the level of unsubstantiated claims, self delusion and thoughtlessness that you bring to the table in a discussion. Now where is that (non-psychogenic) peer reviewed resistor TCR data?



Thanks. I like the unpredictability of the uninformed ignorant. Their hallucinations run the gamut. I bet your parent's reactions were predictable when you insisted that the monsters you heard under your bed were real, despite their cookie cutter responses.



I'm not his other brother Daryl. I'm AJ.



Well at least you can objectively assess one thing. It's a good start.

cheers,

AJ

No, what he's "absolutely correct" about is that when CD players were introduced nearly every engineer I heard and every magazine I read declared that all players sounded identical and that the reproduction was perfect. Even though it was apparent to all who listened that all players did not sound the same, it still took quite some time before you heard audio engineers begin to admit this and attempt to explain why. You don't recall this? It was a pretty commonly debated topic in the early 80's.

Jeff B.

[donparsons]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

AJ,

Do you act like such a tool in person?

Sheesh.

[Guest]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

AJ, you may wish to reread this

I just drop in occasionally to stir 'em up. Easy to pull some people's chains

I just had to pull the pin on the grenade and roll it into the room

but almost every post you make is somehow in violation of decorum and grace.
Dave

Maybe after your eyes clear from your grenades smokescreen, you'll reread your own posts. No promise of comprehension of course. Then try rereading the thread topic. Got any Technical Talk to explain this?

No, what he's "absolutely correct" about is that when CD players were introduced nearly every engineer I heard and every magazine I read declared that all players sounded identical and that the reproduction was perfect.

What Engineers? Recording? EE?
Did psychologists and audiologists all concur too? With a Sony ad slogan??
Reproduction of what was perfect?

Even though it was apparent to all who listened that all players did not sound the same, it still took quite some time before you heard audio engineers begin to admit this and attempt to explain why.
You don't recall this?

No.

It was a pretty commonly debated topic in the early 80's.
Jeff B.

And things have changed in 2009? Debates about who can "hear" what and what can and can't be "heard"? Anecdote vs reality, etc, etc?

Btw, the thread is about the "sound" of Mills resistors et al. I'm still waiting on scientifically valid evidence. Anyone?

cheers,

AJ

[dlr]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

No, what he's "absolutely correct" about is that when CD players were introduced nearly every engineer I heard and every magazine I read declared that all players sounded identical and that the reproduction was perfect. Even though it was apparent to all who listened that all players did not sound the same, it still took quite some time before you heard audio engineers begin to admit this and attempt to explain why. You don't recall this? It was a pretty commonly debated topic in the early 80's.

Jeff B.

No, AJ knows what we have read and not read while he was in college, apparently. Even to the point of knowing that I was reading letters to the editor from manufacturers' marketing departments. All of those that I read were all written under pseudonyms. How ignorant I was. I actually thought it was real people writing.

I mean, really, when I said that there were letters to the editor from some respected scientists, then he seemed to become condescending, that's only because even though he read my words, he knew that my words were wrong and it was only marketing departments involved in everything I was reading. There were no respectable scientists nor engineers involved back then. Even the discovery of jitter must have been some marketing hack's brilliance. How was I to know? Why would anyone have actually conducted research into it and developed a means of measuring it, since all CD players sounded the same, even in the early years before jitter was understood? Marketing, it was nothing but marketing. Jitter, snake oil, all the same.

AJ knows what we all read back then and that no one outside of manufacturers actually spoke out nor wrote about how they all sounded the same and were perfect. Those few who wrote that CD players didn't all sound the same, reason unknown, they were all also just marketing hacks to promote their brand. They weren't real people unaffiliated with any companies. Imagine my dismay in now realizing that for years I read the magazines (no web for posting links to REAL information back then) and actually believed that there was debate about the quality. Wow, how foolish of me.

I defer to you now, AJ. In the future I'll ask you to speak for me, since I obviously can't speak for myself and what I did or read over those years and I couldn't even get that right. Thank you for the enlightenment, I will be forever in your debt.

Oh, and of course, we're not to let the thread veer off of the original topic, no sirree. AJ will set us straight.

dlr

[johnnyrichards]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

well, I was seven years old in the early 80's and I didn't own a CD player until somewhere around 1990 so I missed the whole debate.

You guys are all poopyheads and I have no white papers to back that purely subjective conjecture with so please, just accept my sweeping generalization as a fact. I am a maaintenance man with an AAS in electro-mechanical technology and I have listened to thousands of poopyheads and while they all sound different, they are all poopyheads so there.

Holy cow, I mean it's like we are debating audio properties of something that at normal listening levels probably doesn't matter. It's like discussing saturation of iron core inductors. At normal volumes and power levels is it really a concern? Do resistors in a circuit really get hot enough to change properties at normal listening levels?

I don't know. I got into a debate about wires one night at work with a pair of "audiophiles" who were picking on me for using cheap Dayton interconnects and 12awg zippycord. They used stupid expensive "Transparent" branded stuff. I mentioned that we were running at 99+% repeatability (+/-0.0005mm) on robots using nothing more than Belkin twisted pair cables and grey ribbon cables etc. Oh, and little carbon resistors with a 10% tolerance all over the circuit boards.

FWIW...

[Guest]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

No, AJ knows what we have read and not read while he was in college, apparently. Even to the point of knowing that I was reading letters to the editor from manufacturers' marketing departments. All of those that I read were all written under pseudonyms. How ignorant I was. I actually thought it was real people writing.

I mean, really, when I said that there were letters to the editor from some respected scientists, then he seemed to become condescending, that's only because even though he read my words, he knew that my words were wrong and it was only marketing departments involved in everything I was reading. There were no respectable scientists nor engineers involved back then. Even the discovery of jitter must have been some marketing hack's brilliance. How was I to know? Why would anyone have actually conducted research into it and developed a means of measuring it, since all CD players sounded the same, even in the early years before jitter was understood? Marketing, it was nothing but marketing. Jitter, snake oil, all the same.

AJ knows what we all read back then and that no one outside of manufacturers actually spoke out nor wrote about how they all sounded the same and were perfect. Those few who wrote that CD players didn't all sound the same, reason unknown, they were all also just marketing hacks to promote their brand. They weren't real people unaffiliated with any companies. Imagine my dismay in now realizing that for years I read the magazines (no web for posting links to REAL information back then) and actually believed that there was debate about the quality. Wow, how foolish of me.

I defer to you now, AJ. In the future I'll ask you to speak for me, since I obviously can't speak for myself and what I did or read over those years and I couldn't even get that right. Thank you for the enlightenment, I will be forever in your debt.

Oh, and of course, we're not to let the thread veer off of the original topic, no sirree. AJ will set us straight.

dlr

You can read it anyway you wish Dave. I'm simply stating that I read "Perfect Sound Forever" as a manufacturers ad slogan and not something on par with Faraday's Law of Induction, like you may have. Just a different perspective or recollection of something past. I guess we are all subjectivists after all.

cheers,

AJ

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

No, what he's "absolutely correct" about is that when CD players were introduced nearly every engineer I heard and every magazine I read declared that all players sounded identical and that the reproduction was perfect. Even though it was apparent to all who listened that all players did not sound the same, it still took quite some time before you heard audio engineers begin to admit this and attempt to explain why. You don't recall this? It was a pretty commonly debated topic in the early 80's.

Jeff B.

Hi, Jeff. Back in early '83 I participated in a blind test between a Philips CD player and a Nakamichi Dragon with TDK metal tape using the same source material. The factory guy was relating how the two were indistinguishable in reproduction and CD's offered "Perfect Sound Forever" (remember that?) I scored 10/10 in 3 separate sittings, judging the Nak superior in every criteria in each trial. I was not alone. My fellow recording engineers Eric Larson and Tim Rich did the same. Mike Wolfe, the recordist for the NM Symphony at the time, walked out of the room remarking about "sound from a tin can". Brings back happy memories :D

Dave