Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

[davidellis]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Duplicate poste below. This site is being somewhat finicky for me.

Dave

[daryl]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

No resistor no matter how expensive can effect any improvement whatsoever to the sound of a crossover as compared to the cheapest resistor.

Period!

I have measured all of the resistors I have on hand out to my systems 100khz limit and all of them exhibit a flat impedance vs. frequency so non-inductive is not a feature so far as I've measured.

The largest I measured was 20W and I don't have every kind of resistor so if you have one you are curious about put it in an envelope and mail it to me (I'm curious too).

In small signal applications a low noise resistor can be desirable but crossovers are not one of them since they are not a small signal application meaning the crossover resistors noise is insignifigant relative to the signal level.

All resistors have a noise level tied to their value but there are other noise mechanisms which increase a resistors noise level above the obligatory level and a 'low noise' resistor simply keeps the noise level as close as possible to the minimum.

No signifigant non-linearity (distortion) exists in resistors.

Of course temperature coefficient has no bearing upon the sound of a resistor.

Any resistor you would use in a crossover is temperature compensated and it's value will not change signifigantly with temperature.

Resistors are available with extremely low temperature coefficients for applications where low drift is necessary but a crossover is not one of them.

The only consequence to a resistors temperature coefficient is that it's value will change slowly by an insignifigant amount (the speed with which it changes is not even fast enough to be considered modulation).

If the above was not obvious enough consider the fact that your speaker already has resistors which are not temperature compensated.

Namely the voice coils of your drivers.

They are simply coils of wire and their temperature coefficient is dozens of times worse than the cheapest resistor causing your speakers transfer function to fluctuate with voice coil temperature.

The temperature coefficient of your crossover resistors is meaningless.

That is one of the benefits you get when you use resistors to raise the Q of your drivers is that the resistors being temperature compensated stabilize the system.

Can you see now that certain individuals are being less than honest with you and telling you?

[romanbednarek]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

After replying to Paul Ebert's post about collecting crossover components in order to tweak a speaker I mentioned that during that stage of design that it is most important to get the filter response "right" and that I prefer to not to spend too much money on top notch components at that point. I can't say that I've done any conclusive tests but I'm under the impression that component quality differences (other than tolerance differences) shouldn't have an impact on the frequency response of a filter and that during the tweaking phase of a speaker design, the getting the right frequency response from a design is the top priority. Now this statement assumes that higher quality components can change the neutrality of a speaker/filter combination.

From the other perspective, and getting back to the original post, differences in resistor types from a construction standpoint increase the likelihood that a perceived difference is a possibility. But could any difference in sound lead you to readjust crossover part values due to a change in neutrality?

Anyway, it is good to see some old familiar names around here and I hope everybody is doing well.

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

My 2c.

They aren't that much more expensive for a single pair of speakers.

Another Dave

Hi, Dave. I hope your elbow is doing better. Sucks to have your sanding arm incapacitated.

I think that this whole thing is blown out of proportion. There aren't any huge differences in components with most systems. We've talked about this several times. It is the cumulative effects of several small improvements that give the best bang for the buck to me. For the cost of good resistors and other better components (whatever they are to the individual) I think it crazy to not at least try them.

I find the Mills, Huntington and Ohmite/North Creek to be very good. A step up from the sand cast and metal films. Even so, it takes a system with a very low noise floor to truly appreciate the difference in my experience. Some people also prefer the sound of sand cast resistors in systems shy on detail, because the distortion puts a distinct edge on the highs.

Whatever :p

I'll email you about some things that I have going.

Take care,

Dave, again

[critofur]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

ATM, I'm reading this: http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-er.php

[Face]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Madisounds cheapy Mundorf resistors have a different sound. As for which you will prefer, that's up to you. I prefer them in some of my speakers, but not all. They're cheap enough just to try out.

As for all the mud slinging, just ignore the trolls.

[critofur]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I think this thread needs CLOSED considering all the hotheads in here. Notice I said hotheads as in plural because it's not just one person stirring the pot, there's 2 or maybe 3 in here guilty :rolleyes:

I'd rather have the discussion, even with the crud and nastiness, than not have it at all.

Some topics you know are just always going to have those issues - mind you, that's not WHY I started it.

I do wish there could be a little less mudslinging, but participants always DO HAVE THE OPTION OF DUCKING OUT OF THE THREAD if it gets to nasty for you/them.

I would like to take this opportunity to request that anyone who has said anything that seems to be attacking another person's character, or purposefully insulting to another member - please - go back and remove that portion of your post.

Thank you.

EDIT: Ugh - my goodness - there is a LOT of crud in this thread not directly related/helpful to the art/and/or/science of sound reproduction! Makes me wonder if a little box you could click to collapse certain posts might be in order?

==================

Update: I wanted to buy Mills resistors to try A/B'ing w/the cheap P.E. resistors in some new ZMV5s I'm building, but P.E. doesn't seem to carry 2 Ohm ones :( They don't even carry 4 Ohms, then I could use 2 in parallel. Would Madisound's "Eagle" resistors have as much of a "noticeably improved sound" as the Mills (over the std cheap ones)?"

[davidellis]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

My 2c.

I don't think Mills resistors sound significantly different than cheaper eagle/sand cast varieties, but they do sound slightly different. I do prefer Mills - specifically the MRA-5 variety. They aren't that much more expensive for a single pair of speakers.

Another Dave

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I think this thread needs CLOSED
I'm done with your childishness in this thread

Doubtful.

AJ (and Daryl) and I go way back with either or both jumping in to any thread that I post in that asks a subjective question. Difference between them and me is that I have actually tried, use and sometimes even measured the things that I post about, whereas they just want to do the EE 101 thing and carp about measurements and peer reviewed white papers. They are so hung up on measurements that I'm sure it extends from the audio to the anatomical.

Ok Dave, in retrospect, perhaps I've been a bit harsh on your sonic apparition tales and too stubborn to try/experience every woo woo suggestion under the sun for myself.
Here's something more for you to try that doesn't involve white papers (unless you mean 2-ply tissue) and will subjectively loosen and enhance your listening experience. Scoll down to below "A list of books and publications I have for sale can be found at" http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/index.html

I find it simultaneously humorous and tragic. Sometimes I can't help from egging them on. My bad. I'm not sorry, though. AJ has nothing to add to discussions.
Dave

Not true Dave. I actually have an article for you to read about how some of these sounds that are getting in your head (but are unmeasurable in the soundfield) might be prevented. Or possibly worsened. http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/
Don't be like Daryl (or Larry?) and dare dismiss any of this, unless you've tried it!
Now, what was all this about Mills TCR and grain?

cheers,

AJ

[dlr]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I'll admit that for a long time I told people not to spend a lot of money on CD players because they all sounded the same based on what little I knew of the technology. The problem was that I never took the time to prove this to myself through listening tests until recently. Now that I've had the chance to compare several players (CD and DVD ranging from the late 90's and newer) I can say without a doubt that all of the players I compared sound different to some degree (and these are all fairly recent players, my buddy has the very first Sony CD player released and he says it sounds terrible especially when compared to his new Cambridge player but that is about as wide of a comparison as you can make). Even further I could characterize the differences of my players distinctly. However, if you were to set up one of those players blindly and put in a random disc I "might" not be able to pick out which player it is due to my poor acoustic memory (I don't know if there is a better term for this but that is what I tend to use). Anyway, don't sweat it Dave, based on what I've read from your posts through the years your track record is pretty good in my opinion and I value your insight. The thing that I really hate is how some disputes, regardless of who is right or wrong, can sometimes drive away some of the experienced veterans of this hobby out of frustration.

You know, I like a spirited debate. But it should be kept respectable. I don't know why anyone would be driven away due to a respectable debate. Some differences just can't be narrowed. Not all should be.

Thankfully we don't ALL believe that 1st order/LR4/T-P/Infinite Slope/Waveguide/Ribbons/Dynamic drivers/Electrostat is the only way to do speakers.

I'd also hate to have to recount the times that I couldn't hear what should have been an obvious problem. Ever wire up a crossover wrong and not realize it for a while? Sometimes you have to be in the mood to try to hear differences for them to become apparent. But then you're not listening for the enjoyment.

dlr

[romanbednarek]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

No, AJ knows what we have read and not read while he was in college, apparently. Even to the point of knowing that I was reading letters to the editor from manufacturers' marketing departments. All of those that I read were all written under pseudonyms. How ignorant I was. I actually thought it was real people writing.

I mean, really, when I said that there were letters to the editor from some respected scientists, then he seemed to become condescending, that's only because even though he read my words, he knew that my words were wrong and it was only marketing departments involved in everything I was reading. There were no respectable scientists nor engineers involved back then. Even the discovery of jitter must have been some marketing hack's brilliance. How was I to know? Why would anyone have actually conducted research into it and developed a means of measuring it, since all CD players sounded the same, even in the early years before jitter was understood? Marketing, it was nothing but marketing. Jitter, snake oil, all the same.

AJ knows what we all read back then and that no one outside of manufacturers actually spoke out nor wrote about how they all sounded the same and were perfect. Those few who wrote that CD players didn't all sound the same, reason unknown, they were all also just marketing hacks to promote their brand. They weren't real people unaffiliated with any companies. Imagine my dismay in now realizing that for years I read the magazines (no web for posting links to REAL information back then) and actually believed that there was debate about the quality. Wow, how foolish of me.

I defer to you now, AJ. In the future I'll ask you to speak for me, since I obviously can't speak for myself and what I did or read over those years and I couldn't even get that right. Thank you for the enlightenment, I will be forever in your debt.

Oh, and of course, we're not to let the thread veer off of the original topic, no sirree. AJ will set us straight.

dlr

I'll admit that for a long time I told people not to spend a lot of money on CD players because they all sounded the same based on what little I knew of the technology. The problem was that I never took the time to prove this to myself through listening tests until recently. Now that I've had the chance to compare several players (CD and DVD ranging from the late 90's and newer) I can say without a doubt that all of the players I compared sound different to some degree (and these are all fairly recent players, my buddy has the very first Sony CD player released and he says it sounds terrible especially when compared to his new Cambridge player but that is about as wide of a comparison as you can make). Even further I could characterize the differences of my players distinctly. However, if you were to set up one of those players blindly and put in a random disc I "might" not be able to pick out which player it is due to my poor acoustic memory (I don't know if there is a better term for this but that is what I tend to use). Anyway, don't sweat it Dave, based on what I've read from your posts through the years your track record is pretty good in my opinion and I value your insight. The thing that I really hate is how some disputes, regardless of who is right or wrong, can sometimes drive away some of the experienced veterans of this hobby out of frustration.

[natediggidy]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Whatever, you guys just duke it out and keep throwing the insults.....I'm done with your childishness in this thread

Thankfully, the OP seemed to get what he wanted out of it.

[Jeff B.]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

As one of your guilty parties, I would ask the you reread the thread from the point that it deteriorated to the spitfest that is going on. You might also want to do a search on the offender's posts and see the overall tone of each's posts. I tink you will find that there are some that derive their satisfaction from belittling other's points of view, no matter what those may be.

AJ (and Daryl) and I go way back with either or both jumping in to any thread that I post in that asks a subjective question. Difference between them and me is that I have actually tried, use and sometimes even measured the things that I post about, whereas they just want to do the EE 101 thing and carp about measurements and peer reviewed white papers. They are so hung up on measurements that I'm sure it extends from the audio to the anatomical.

I find it simultaneously humorous and tragic. Sometimes I can't help from egging them on. My bad. I'm not sorry, though. AJ has nothing to add to discussions.

Dave

After all these years you still make me chuckle. ;)

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I think this thread needs CLOSED considering all the hotheads in here. Notice I said hotheads as in plural because it's not just one person stirring the pot, there's 2 or maybe 3 in here guilty :rolleyes:

As one of your guilty parties, I would ask the you reread the thread from the point that it deteriorated to the spitfest that is going on. You might also want to do a search on the offender's posts and see the overall tone of each's posts. I think you will find that there are some that derive their satisfaction from belittling other's points of view, no matter what those may be.

AJ (and Daryl) and I go way back with either or both jumping in to any thread that I post in that asks a subjective question. Difference between them and me is that I have actually tried, use and sometimes even measured the things that I post about, whereas they just want to do the EE 101 thing and carp about measurements and peer reviewed white papers. They are so hung up on measurements that I'm sure it extends from the audio to the anatomical.

I find it simultaneously humorous and tragic. Sometimes I can't help from egging them on. My bad. I'm not sorry, though. AJ has nothing to add to discussions.

Dave

[davidl]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Who are the hotheads? I must be missing something, because I am reading this on a friendlier scale without the agitation normally associated with "hotheads". I guess it is all in how you choose to read something. And I don't understand why the tread necessarily needs to be closed just because people may see something differently.

You're kidding right? DBE, AJ and DLR are close to being really stupidly rude to each other if not already. Whatever, you guys just duke it out and keep throwing the insults.....I'm done with your childishness in this thread