Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

[Guest]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I think this thread needs CLOSED
I'm done with your childishness in this thread

Doubtful.

AJ (and Daryl) and I go way back with either or both jumping in to any thread that I post in that asks a subjective question. Difference between them and me is that I have actually tried, use and sometimes even measured the things that I post about, whereas they just want to do the EE 101 thing and carp about measurements and peer reviewed white papers. They are so hung up on measurements that I'm sure it extends from the audio to the anatomical.

Ok Dave, in retrospect, perhaps I've been a bit harsh on your sonic apparition tales and too stubborn to try/experience every woo woo suggestion under the sun for myself.
Here's something more for you to try that doesn't involve white papers (unless you mean 2-ply tissue) and will subjectively loosen and enhance your listening experience. Scoll down to below "A list of books and publications I have for sale can be found at" http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/index.html

I find it simultaneously humorous and tragic. Sometimes I can't help from egging them on. My bad. I'm not sorry, though. AJ has nothing to add to discussions.
Dave

Not true Dave. I actually have an article for you to read about how some of these sounds that are getting in your head (but are unmeasurable in the soundfield) might be prevented. Or possibly worsened. http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/
Don't be like Daryl (or Larry?) and dare dismiss any of this, unless you've tried it!
Now, what was all this about Mills TCR and grain?

cheers,

AJ

[davidellis]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

My 2c.

I don't think Mills resistors sound significantly different than cheaper eagle/sand cast varieties, but they do sound slightly different. I do prefer Mills - specifically the MRA-5 variety. They aren't that much more expensive for a single pair of speakers.

Another Dave

[critofur]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I think this thread needs CLOSED considering all the hotheads in here. Notice I said hotheads as in plural because it's not just one person stirring the pot, there's 2 or maybe 3 in here guilty :rolleyes:

I'd rather have the discussion, even with the crud and nastiness, than not have it at all.

Some topics you know are just always going to have those issues - mind you, that's not WHY I started it.

I do wish there could be a little less mudslinging, but participants always DO HAVE THE OPTION OF DUCKING OUT OF THE THREAD if it gets to nasty for you/them.

I would like to take this opportunity to request that anyone who has said anything that seems to be attacking another person's character, or purposefully insulting to another member - please - go back and remove that portion of your post.

Thank you.

EDIT: Ugh - my goodness - there is a LOT of crud in this thread not directly related/helpful to the art/and/or/science of sound reproduction! Makes me wonder if a little box you could click to collapse certain posts might be in order?

==================

Update: I wanted to buy Mills resistors to try A/B'ing w/the cheap P.E. resistors in some new ZMV5s I'm building, but P.E. doesn't seem to carry 2 Ohm ones :( They don't even carry 4 Ohms, then I could use 2 in parallel. Would Madisound's "Eagle" resistors have as much of a "noticeably improved sound" as the Mills (over the std cheap ones)?"

[Face]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Madisounds cheapy Mundorf resistors have a different sound. As for which you will prefer, that's up to you. I prefer them in some of my speakers, but not all. They're cheap enough just to try out.

As for all the mud slinging, just ignore the trolls.

[critofur]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

ATM, I'm reading this: http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-er.php

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

My 2c.

They aren't that much more expensive for a single pair of speakers.

Another Dave

Hi, Dave. I hope your elbow is doing better. Sucks to have your sanding arm incapacitated.

I think that this whole thing is blown out of proportion. There aren't any huge differences in components with most systems. We've talked about this several times. It is the cumulative effects of several small improvements that give the best bang for the buck to me. For the cost of good resistors and other better components (whatever they are to the individual) I think it crazy to not at least try them.

I find the Mills, Huntington and Ohmite/North Creek to be very good. A step up from the sand cast and metal films. Even so, it takes a system with a very low noise floor to truly appreciate the difference in my experience. Some people also prefer the sound of sand cast resistors in systems shy on detail, because the distortion puts a distinct edge on the highs.

Whatever :p

I'll email you about some things that I have going.

Take care,

Dave, again

[romanbednarek]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

After replying to Paul Ebert's post about collecting crossover components in order to tweak a speaker I mentioned that during that stage of design that it is most important to get the filter response "right" and that I prefer to not to spend too much money on top notch components at that point. I can't say that I've done any conclusive tests but I'm under the impression that component quality differences (other than tolerance differences) shouldn't have an impact on the frequency response of a filter and that during the tweaking phase of a speaker design, the getting the right frequency response from a design is the top priority. Now this statement assumes that higher quality components can change the neutrality of a speaker/filter combination.

From the other perspective, and getting back to the original post, differences in resistor types from a construction standpoint increase the likelihood that a perceived difference is a possibility. But could any difference in sound lead you to readjust crossover part values due to a change in neutrality?

Anyway, it is good to see some old familiar names around here and I hope everybody is doing well.

[daryl]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

No resistor no matter how expensive can effect any improvement whatsoever to the sound of a crossover as compared to the cheapest resistor.

Period!

I have measured all of the resistors I have on hand out to my systems 100khz limit and all of them exhibit a flat impedance vs. frequency so non-inductive is not a feature so far as I've measured.

The largest I measured was 20W and I don't have every kind of resistor so if you have one you are curious about put it in an envelope and mail it to me (I'm curious too).

In small signal applications a low noise resistor can be desirable but crossovers are not one of them since they are not a small signal application meaning the crossover resistors noise is insignifigant relative to the signal level.

All resistors have a noise level tied to their value but there are other noise mechanisms which increase a resistors noise level above the obligatory level and a 'low noise' resistor simply keeps the noise level as close as possible to the minimum.

No signifigant non-linearity (distortion) exists in resistors.

Of course temperature coefficient has no bearing upon the sound of a resistor.

Any resistor you would use in a crossover is temperature compensated and it's value will not change signifigantly with temperature.

Resistors are available with extremely low temperature coefficients for applications where low drift is necessary but a crossover is not one of them.

The only consequence to a resistors temperature coefficient is that it's value will change slowly by an insignifigant amount (the speed with which it changes is not even fast enough to be considered modulation).

If the above was not obvious enough consider the fact that your speaker already has resistors which are not temperature compensated.

Namely the voice coils of your drivers.

They are simply coils of wire and their temperature coefficient is dozens of times worse than the cheapest resistor causing your speakers transfer function to fluctuate with voice coil temperature.

The temperature coefficient of your crossover resistors is meaningless.

That is one of the benefits you get when you use resistors to raise the Q of your drivers is that the resistors being temperature compensated stabilize the system.

Can you see now that certain individuals are being less than honest with you and telling you?

[davidellis]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Duplicate poste below. This site is being somewhat finicky for me.

Dave

[davidellis]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Daryl,

I have measured all of the resistors I have on hand out to my systems 100khz limit and all of them exhibit a flat impedance vs. frequency so non-inductive is not a feature so far as I've measured.

Hmmm, I have experienced different results from 20hz to 20khz with at least 1 resistor.

About 8 years ago I managed to measure a few different resistors using LspLab before the setup imploded. For a brief period of time it produced very good results. The setup was arranged to calibrate using a specific value of resistor and then measure other components (including loudspeaker impedance) using the calibration resistor as a baseline. I had a few scattered resistors availalbe. I had Mills (MRA-12), North Creek, Eagle, and the square Sand-Cast "flavor".

Using the Mills resistor as the calibration resistor, I actually did find a rising impedance curve present in the square Madisound Sand-Cast resistors when measuring from 20hz to 20khz. I don't recall the specific value of measured inductance, but it was small. I suppose the impedance of the Sand-Cast resistor went from 8ohms (nominal & stated) to perhaps 9.5ohms at 20khz.

I cannot recreate these graphs or the test using my current software setup. As mentioned above, LspLab imploded several months later. Nonetheless, the test seemed reliable at the time. I would also like to note that at this time the Sand-Cast resistors were NOT non-inductive resistor or sold as such. Madisound sold two flavors of cheap resistors - Eagle and Sand-Cast. The eagle resistors were clearly marketed as non-inductive and their price was higher because of this. Perhaps the current genre of Sand-Cast resistors are different? I recall trying to re-create this test a few years later using a "non - inductive" version of the square sand-cast resistor, but was unsuccessful. I couldn't generate the rising impedance. It could be that the internal design of the new square sand-cast resistors has changed.

The temperature coefficient of your crossover resistors is meaningless.

This is a good comment - I agree. I was worried when I first used the Mills MRA-5 resitors because they were very small and I was concerned they would get hot. They don't. They run very cool.

Hi, Dave. I hope your elbow is doing better. Sucks to have your sanding arm incapacitated.

My arm is back to about 60%. With a shot of cortisone and no exercise/strain on the elbow the pain is very minimal – only a few twangs per week. Unfortunately, after my elbow got better, I was carrying a heavy garbage can full of Oak trimmings (straight arms) and sprained my right knee. It wasn’t getting better, so I visited the doc. They prescribed vitamin “M” and Physical Therapy (PT). The PT caused fairly significant internal swelling in my right knee and I have been limping for the last month. I can’t fully extent my right leg. I have an MRI on Wednesday and a follow-up with Orthopedics on the 11th. Dave, I am getting old. I have to start treating my body very differently.

Another Dave

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

From the other perspective, and getting back to the original post, differences in resistor types from a construction standpoint increase the likelihood that a perceived difference is a possibility. But could any difference in sound lead you to readjust crossover part values due to a change in neutrality?

Anyway, it is good to see some old familiar names around here and I hope everybody is doing well.

Roman, Life is good. Thanks for the wishes.

Different resistors do sound different. Nowhere is this more evident in audio nowdays than in the musical instrument amplifier realm. You could go onto any of the discussion forums and see the comments about resistor sounds, particularly in reference to the old carbon comp resistors compared to carbon film or metal film. Resistor noise is something that we seem to have forgotten about. It was accepted as the norm, yes even in EE classes: carbon comps hiss. This is due, primarily, to their TCR and granular construction. They also drift over time. As such they are not the finite critters that some people would lead others to believe.

If my memory serves me I have never had to change the value of a crossover component due to a resistor change. Like I said in another post: we're not talking huge differences. These are incremental differences that may or may not serve every system.

The moment of truth for me was years ago when I was working with a vifa D25AG-35 tweeter. The rest of the system was comprised of a Krell amp, a passive volume control and a very good vinyl front end. I was in the final level setting of the speakers and was rummaging around in my junk box to get matching resistor values and found a ceramic boat for one side and a Dale wirewound for the other. When I played the system, the side with the ceramic sound a little bit harsher. I asked my wife to come in and listen to the system to get her opinion. She listened for a little while and said that it didn't sound balanced in the highs. I swapped the resistors and the imbalance followed the components. I called her back in and she said it sounded different, but still not right.

I had just been through a road situation where I had changed the attenuating resistors on a JBL compression driver in a sound reinforcement system. I had to parallel some 50W resistors to replace a 25W that had cooked. The resulting combination sounded cleaner that the original. I then duplicated the change for the other side with the same results.

It was the combined experience of these two unrelated circumstances that made me stop and try every resistor that I could find for the best sonics. My experience is that 10W (or better) 1% precision wirewounds sound the best to me. Of course I must be delusional, but it is a delusion that many people share and we are very happy in our bliss.

I lurk here occasionally between projects and when someone asks a question that looks like they might actually want to TRY something and wants an opinion based on experience I'll chime in. My experience is simply that and opinions are like... well, you know. Besides, I do enjoy stirring up the "superior twins". I enjoy listening to crickets.

Good to talk to you.



Dave

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

After all these years you still make me chuckle. ;)

Bro',

My pleasure :D

Dave

[curt_c]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I had just been through a road situation where I had changed the attenuating resistors on a JBL compression driver in a sound reinforcement system. I had to parallel some 50W resistors to replace a 25W that had cooked. The resulting combination sounded cleaner that the original. I then duplicated the change for the other side with the same results.

IYO, this would be due to:
A) Paralleling the replacement resistors
B) The increased power capabilities of the resistors
C) A different type of resistor? (WW vs. thick film, for example)
D) ???

It was the combined experience of these two unrelated circumstances that made me stop and try every resistor that I could find for the best sonics. My experience is that 10W (or better) 1% precision wirewounds sound the best to me. Of course I must be delusional, but it is a delusion that many people share and we are very happy in our bliss.

That leaves a lot of territory. Can you be more specific as to which precision WW’s you found useful. I’m assuming you aren’t suggesting all 10W 1% wirewounds are equal.

Dave, I’m honestly not being critical here. While your anecdotal observations are interesting, they need a bit more data to be of any useful import.

C

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

This is a good comment - I agree. I was worried when I first used the Mills MRA-5 resitors because they were very small and I was concerned they would get hot. They don't. They run very cool.

Another Dave,

Here are a few references for you:

http://www.prpinc.com/pdf/Audio_PR9372_Series.pdf

http://www.planetanalog.com/features/multimedia/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=177105460

http://www.ohmite.com/cgi-bin/showpage.cgi?product=audiogold

http://www.vishay.com/docs/49414/vse-an00.pdf

http://www.charcroft.com/site/pdf/data/Charcroft%20SCARAudio%20Resistor.pdf

http://www.millsresistor.com/pdf/pg16prn.pdf

http://www.sasaudiolabs.com/resistor.htm

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6317024.html

and the resulting resistor

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/pdf/takamn_pdf.pdf

Let me know if you need more references. I'm sure the "Superiors" will dismiss all of this as "marketing hype".

:D

Dave, too

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

IYO, this would be due to:
A) Paralleling the replacement resistors
B) The increased power capabilities of the resistors
C) A different type of resistor? (WW vs. thick film, for example)
D) ???

*****
Yes to A&B - Instantaneous transients (micro to milliseconds: hence the burst of noise) through high power compression drivers are often in the thousands of watts while operating at sustained levels of 50 to 100 watts.

NO to C - they were all Culver ceramic boats. The company that I was doing the repair for had a huge stock of Culvers - crappy resistors, BTW

D - not so much - it's just physics

*****

That leaves a lot of territory. Can you be more specific as to which precision WW’s you found useful. I’m assuming you aren’t suggesting all 10W 1% wirewounds are equal.

*****

No, I'm not. I find the Mills, Ohmite, North Creek, and Huntington Electric wirewounds to be my choices. Pretty much I stay away from bulk metals in loudspeaker applications.

*****

Dave, I’m honestly not being critical here. While your anecdotal observations are interesting, they need a bit more data to be of any useful import.

*****

I appreciate that. I wanted more info, too. It didn't exist. Fortunately for me it started a whole bunch of "why and how" experimentation and research on my part. Check out my reply to Dave Ellis above. It is a good place to start.

Also, keep in mind that if the system being tweaked is a $100.00 DVD player used to play CDs through a low end consumer audio receiver, money is better spent on beer.

When all else fails when it comes to listening to music critically, trust your ears. What do you wish to satisfy, your brain or a screen display? Nobody, barring those with cochlear implants (they are very good at hearing incremental changes, BTW), listen to music with a measurement mic.

Dave, the audio sleuth