Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

[Jeff B.]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Absolutely correct about what?
That some people don't know/can't tell the difference between science taught in school and slogans concocted by manufacturers marketing departments? I checked the EE curriculum at my school today. Marketing classes still aren't required core or electives. Perhaps in the Business Dept?



We'll just have to take your word for it.
But you speak for yourself, not everyone. I certainly didn't confuse marketing slogans with scientific reality about stereo illusions.



Well, you could purchase a random late 80's CD player on ebay or at a pawn shop for next to nothing, then set up a blind comparison at your next DIY, vs a current "known" hi-end model and post the results of attendees, including yourself. Sure would beat conjecture.



Thanks Dave, I really appreciate that. Then the relationship is symbiotic. The entertainment provided by (the likes of) you to me is endless. The thing that I appreciate about you the most is the level of unsubstantiated claims, self delusion and thoughtlessness that you bring to the table in a discussion. Now where is that (non-psychogenic) peer reviewed resistor TCR data?



Thanks. I like the unpredictability of the uninformed ignorant. Their hallucinations run the gamut. I bet your parent's reactions were predictable when you insisted that the monsters you heard under your bed were real, despite their cookie cutter responses.



I'm not his other brother Daryl. I'm AJ.



Well at least you can objectively assess one thing. It's a good start.

cheers,

AJ

No, what he's "absolutely correct" about is that when CD players were introduced nearly every engineer I heard and every magazine I read declared that all players sounded identical and that the reproduction was perfect. Even though it was apparent to all who listened that all players did not sound the same, it still took quite some time before you heard audio engineers begin to admit this and attempt to explain why. You don't recall this? It was a pretty commonly debated topic in the early 80's.

Jeff B.

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Thanks Dave, I really appreciate that. Then the relationship is symbiotic. The entertainment provided by (the likes of) you to me is endless. The thing that I appreciate about you the most is the level of unsubstantiated claims, self delusion and thoughtlessness that you bring to the table in a discussion. Now where is that (non-psychogenic) peer reviewed resistor TCR data?

Thanks. I like the unpredictability of the uninformed ignorant. Their hallucinations run the gamut. I bet your parent's reactions were predictable when you insisted that the monsters you heard under your bed were real, despite their cookie cutter responses.

I'm not his other brother Daryl. I'm AJ.

Well at least you can objectively assess one thing. It's a good start.

cheers,

AJ

AJ, you may wish to reread this (I know all of the rest of us do):

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2. You agree to always treat other people with respect. You will never use information posted to cause harm or appear to cause harm to any person or group of people.

I understand that we all have bad days and tend to take them out on others, but almost every post you make is somehow in violation of decorum and grace. Why are you so filled with vitriol?

Dave

[ctbowman]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Bad analogy Dave...
Analog photography does not provide infinite resolution, but is limited by the size of the grains of silver iodide. Consequently, by your definition, both digital and analog photography produce 'images'.

I've never read of any correlation between the Thermal Coefficient of Resistance, and the audible qualities of a resistor. Perhaps you'd like to suggest an article or paper that makes that assertion?

C

Beat Me to it, I was going to say the same thing.

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

He's absolutely correct. It may not have been in your classes at the time.

Absolutely correct about what?
That some people don't know/can't tell the difference between science taught in school and slogans concocted by manufacturers marketing departments? I checked the EE curriculum at my school today. Marketing classes still aren't required core or electives. Perhaps in the Business Dept?

Don't tell me that I have to post a link, this was in articles, and more often letters to the editor from some respected scientists, that have likely never been put onto the web. It was common in the early years. We're talking in the neighborhood of 20 years ago or more. I threw out those magazines quite some time ago.

We'll just have to take your word for it.
But you speak for yourself, not everyone. I certainly didn't confuse marketing slogans with scientific reality about stereo illusions.

I am an EE myself, read the various audio magazines for years, believed the objective side absolutely for years. Yep, digital was perfect sound forever. Variants on that theme were common, not just in advertising. There was a distinct objective vs. subjective argument for some time. The retailers were early to get into improving the playback. It took more years before the recording studies realized and accepted that the commonly used Sony A/D converter had significantly bad clock jitter. This argument was entirely separate from any based on the analog stages not directly associated with the A/D and D/A conversions.
There's no doubt to me that early players aren't the equivalent of today's. I kept my original one for about 15 years, using it only as a transport in later years. I've also picked up others' throw aways of old ones over the last few years, playing around with them, some going back to the 80's, swapping out the old opamps in a couple of cases. The sound is without doubt worse using their analog outs, even with new opamps. It's not like differences in resistors.

Dave

Well, you could purchase a random late 80's CD player on ebay or at a pawn shop for next to nothing, then set up a blind comparison at your next DIY, vs a current "known" hi-end model and post the results of attendees, including yourself. Sure would beat conjecture.

I think the thing that I appreciate about you the most is the level of wisdom, insight and thoughfulness that you bring to the table in a discussion. You never fail to make me smile.

Thanks Dave, I really appreciate that. Then the relationship is symbiotic. The entertainment provided by (the likes of) you to me is endless. The thing that I appreciate about you the most is the level of unsubstantiated claims, self delusion and thoughtlessness that you bring to the table in a discussion. Now where is that (non-psychogenic) peer reviewed resistor TCR data?

In the realm of predictability I can set my watch by you and your cookie cutter EE 101 responses.

Thanks. I like the unpredictability of the uninformed ignorant. Their hallucinations run the gamut. I bet your parent's reactions were predictable when you insisted that the monsters you heard under your bed were real, despite their cookie cutter responses.

I'm sure that your intellectual clone Daryl will chime in soon.

I'm not his other brother Daryl. I'm AJ.

Your favorite fool,
Dave

Well at least you can objectively assess one thing. It's a good start.

cheers,

AJ

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

If you can get past the flowery language directed at the audiophool, and stick with the specs at hand, the Ohmite and North resistors have very low temperature coefficients ( 20 and 50 ppm) and huge surge capability. These are ideal for audio design as their values won't change appreciably with power level.

I suppose that after I made the transition from objectiviity to tempered subjectivity I began to approach debates like this with the attitude of: " If there is all of this debate about whether or not something makes an audible improvement (NOT difference) why not expand my realm of experience/education by giving it a try. My gosh, if something only costs a couple of bucks, why noy!?!?

Since listening is a purely subjective experience (I listen with my ears. I measure with a mic) an improvement that makes my listening experience more enjoyable is a good thing. In a high resolution system, low TCR resistors are a good thing IME.

YMMV

Dave

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/OHMITE.html

They make a convincing argument for resistors sounding different.

But - is "typically about 400 ppm/°C" really significant?

My skepticism kicks in as my disgust at their overzealous marketing enthusiasm starts to fester: "These are a performance leap over the usual 50¢ sand cast resistor." and "The gritty texture of virtually all sand cast resistors is eliminated via the wirewounds." ???

Before they went over the top, I was thinking to myself "hmm, it's only a few bucks for some of these resistors, worth satisfying my curiosity to try a few" - but - their enthusiasm for the level of improvement strikes me as dishonest.

Searching further (on other web pages) I come accross coments like: "The removal of this inductor opens up the sound - the music flows and blooms better." :eek::eek::eek::rolleyes:

Me troll? Err - I say what I think without thinking if I should say it. Mostly, I'm just too honest, I suppose?

If you can get past the flowery language directed at the audiophool, and stick with the specs at hand, the Ohmite and North resistors have very low temperature coefficients ( 20 and 50 ppm) and huge surge capability. These are ideal for audio design as their values won't change appreciably with power level.

[critofur]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/OHMITE.html

They make a convincing argument for resistors sounding different.

But - is "typically about 400 ppm/°C" really significant?

My skepticism kicks in as my disgust at their overzealous marketing enthusiasm starts to fester: "These are a performance leap over the usual 50¢ sand cast resistor." and "The gritty texture of virtually all sand cast resistors is eliminated via the wirewounds." ???

Before they went over the top, I was thinking to myself "hmm, it's only a few bucks for some of these resistors, worth satisfying my curiosity to try a few" - but - their enthusiasm for the level of improvement strikes me as dishonest.

Searching further (on other web pages) I come accross coments like: "The removal of this inductor opens up the sound - the music flows and blooms better." :eek::eek::eek::rolleyes:

Me troll? Err - I say what I think without thinking if I should say it. Mostly, I'm just too honest, I suppose?

[Ludo]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Ok, people have presented opinions, thank you. Please pull back a little on the insults - I know a lot of people say a lot of ridiculous seeming things, and, most of us aren't really participating in a debate where we would consider changing our perspectives if given new evidence.

But, I've learned what I wanted, thank you again. And, that is: any significant differences that've been enthused by people in various places were, most likely, simply bias. Another but - I am certainly open to trying Mills resistors, even in non-scientific blind test, to see if I can "hear" a difference too.

The other thing to bear in mind: resistors in crossovers do sometimes overheat to the point of burning out - so - instead of one 5 Ohm 5 Watt resistor, it couldn't hurt to use a pair of 10 Ohm 10 Watt resistors in parallel?

When one of those 5/10 watt non "audio grade" basic Parts Express resistors gets hot enough that it's painfully hot to touch, by how much would you say the resistance would change, compared to when it's room temperature?

There's no question these are quality parts, using quality materials, with solid specs, and are subjected to very rigorous stress testing, just don't expect any miracles.

http://www.millsresistor.com/pdf/pg16prn.pdf

Louis

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Ok, people have presented opinions, thank you. Please pull back a little on the insults - I know a lot of people say a lot of ridiculous seeming things, and, most of us aren't really participating in a debate where we would consider changing our perspectives if given new evidence.

But, I've learned what I wanted, thank you again. And, that is: any significant differences that've been enthused by people in various places were, most likely, simply bias. Another but - I am certainly open to trying Mills resistors, even in non-scientific blind test, to see if I can "hear" a difference too.

The other thing to bear in mind: resistors in crossovers do sometimes overheat to the point of burning out - so - instead of one 5 Ohm 5 Watt resistor, it couldn't hurt to use a pair of 10 Ohm 10 Watt resistors in parallel?

When one of those 5/10 watt non "audio grade" basic Parts Express resistors gets hot enough that it's painfully hot to touch, by how much would you say the resistance would change, compared to when it's room temperature?

Well, here's an example. http://www.northcreekmusic.com/OHMITE.html

SPECIFICATIONS:

* 10 Watt Wirewound
* 1% Tolerance
* Overload: 10 Times rated wattage for 5 seconds
* Temperature Coefficient:
1.00 Ohm to 8.06 Ohm
< ± 50 ppm/°C
10.00 Ohm to 221.0 Ohm
< ± 20 ppm/°C

I wouldn't worry about a wirewound getting hot to the touch. Even when water is boiling on them, you'll see less than 1% change in value.

[jkim]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Christopher must you insist on continuing with these troll like questions?

If you want to know what something sounds like buy the damn thing and listen.

BTW, what's your "real" identity, NoBS? I've been wondering about that since you showed up here not long ago, though I suspect one or two...

Anyway, Critofur's question doesn't look like a "troll-like" question, at least to me.

[NoBS]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Christopher must you insist on continuing with these troll like questions?

If you want to know what something sounds like buy the damn thing and listen.

[critofur]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Ok, people have presented opinions, thank you. Please pull back a little on the insults - I know a lot of people say a lot of ridiculous seeming things, and, most of us aren't really participating in a debate where we would consider changing our perspectives if given new evidence.

But, I've learned what I wanted, thank you again. And, that is: any significant differences that've been enthused by people in various places were, most likely, simply bias. Another but - I am certainly open to trying Mills resistors, even in non-scientific blind test, to see if I can "hear" a difference too.

The other thing to bear in mind: resistors in crossovers do sometimes overheat to the point of burning out - so - instead of one 5 Ohm 5 Watt resistor, it couldn't hurt to use a pair of 10 Ohm 10 Watt resistors in parallel?

When one of those 5/10 watt non "audio grade" basic Parts Express resistors gets hot enough that it's painfully hot to touch, by how much would you say the resistance would change, compared to when it's room temperature?

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

If you're referring to the Centaurs, only the Majors really sound good to me. They were a favorite of mine (a dealer in Montreal was "selling" them for me on consignment, then declared bankruptcy right after he "sold" them, I got zilch). The woofers definitely were the weak point.
dlr

Could be the Slant Sixes or Slant Eights, too. They run out of steam on the bottom and just don't integrate with the panels. They are OK to listen to if you just listen 'to' music and don't do critical listening 'through' them.

Gosh, 3 Daves in a row



D2

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

dBE, how fairs? Nice to read you again, hope all is well. Digital vs film:
http://fwd.five.tv/videos/challenge-blow-up-part-3

All is well here in balmy New Mexico. It will be in the high 50s - low 60's here tomorrow.

I just drop in occasionally to stir 'em up. Easy to pull some people's chains and when I've had a particularly bad (or good) day You can find me here. Good to see some of the "old guys" lurk here as well as I.

Great advice on the OCD that possess each of us to a degree. I've spent a few years in the 'not gonna tweak it anymore' mode until just recently when I started addressing the crappy A/C we have here. I now have a new RFI/EMI/PFC unit that I've put into a few of the local studios as beta units and will bring it to market in a couple of months.

Life just brings small challenges that need to be addressed.

Drop me a line on my email occasionally. I so enjoy our talks.

Regards,

Dave, too

[dlr]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Its funny how it works. I've heard Apogees over a system that was tweaked and obsessed over, and no doubt the changes brought the owner joy. I don't even doubt he heard the positive changes and could pick them out blindly. Good for him. All I heard over my fresh set of ears was that cheap Vifa woofer!

If you're referring to the Centaurs, only the Majors really sound good to me. They were a favorite of mine (a dealer in Montreal was "selling" them for me on consignment, then declared bankruptcy right after he "sold" them, I got zilch). The woofers definitely were the weak point.

dlr