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  • Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

    Originally posted by dbe View Post

    money is better spent on beer.
    G'day Dave. :D

    This is sooooo the reality of the case.

    Good to see you getting involved again.

    I also am pretty sure I have noticed the difference in resistors. Probably not a difference that could be picked up in a null biased ABX test, but so what.

    With all these 'tweaks' one has to use one's common sense and budget. If a person is in a position to try a tweak, then, why not. Science certainly doesn't know everything and those who are stuck with that notion are destined for mediocrity.
    There are unfortunately those SO merchants who put forward junk science in support of their products, but anyone with even a little bit of science can generally pick those.

    So, if people want to try a tweak, first look at the price vs budget vs possible benefit.

    DO.. Try to get a listen somewhere before purchasing.
    DO.. Listen to comments of people you trust and who have actually heard and listened.

    DO NOT.. take the word of reviews in magazines, they are more often than not 'paid'
    and
    DO NOT.. discard a tweak based on ABX tests, they are heavily weighted towards a null result.

    If that leaves things up in the air, or sitting on the fence.......
    If people want to listen to wiggles, that up to them....

    I prefer music.

    Comment


    • Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

      Originally posted by Andy_G View Post
      DO.. Try to get a listen somewhere before purchasing.
      Right and make sure you see, know and at least mismatch the volume too. You'll get the desired results much better that way. That are scientifically valid too. Seriously.

      Originally posted by Andy_G View Post
      DO.. Listen to comments of people you trust and who have actually heard and listened.
      You betcha. Pre-bias yourself as much as possible. Trust others who have actually heard and listened while seeing, knowing and fiddling with the volume. You'll get the results that are hidden by DBT's. Never nulls that way eh!!

      Originally posted by Andy_G View Post
      DO NOT.. discard a tweak based on ABX tests, they are heavily weighted towards a null result.
      Yep, we know endless nulls can only mean the tests are hiding the "real" differences that we "know" exist. And how do we "know" this? Well, by seeing, knowing, fiddling with the volume and then "just listening" and "hearing".

      Originally posted by Andy_G View Post
      If people want to listen to wiggles, that up to them
      http://www.thewiggles.com.au/us/home/
      Ummm, sure, if that's what they enjoy, why not?

      cheers mate :p,

      AJ

      Comment


      • Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

        Originally posted by ajinfla View Post
        I'm not quite sure how this would be relevant if there isn't an audibilty study to go along with it.
        Perhaps someone said the same thing the first time cactus needle touched shellac, but these things have to be taken in measured steps.

        First examine the physical phenomenon. Knowing how significant the electrical dynamic compression affects are in drivers due to instantaneous heating, as reported in numerous AES papers, there is precedent to at least create the curiosity to investigate this further. And isn't curiosity the mother of scientific discovery?

        When we started designing voice over IP audio, there was so little known about the affects of the impairments present. Little did we know that some voice coders would sound very good with English but be statistical monstrosities in double blind subjective testing, with Eastern European dialog. These surprises have paved the pathway to better sound for decades.

        I have a gold mine of scientific subjective test data from that era, some of which we conducted ourselves, but also reams that I took from prior audition studies. Some of it is even related to dynamic noise impairment (not a surprise as we were taking an always on voice application and cutting it into chunks), which has parallels with the impairment discussed here.

        I'm curious, and if someone has the data, would like to see if I can find any related testing.

        Dave#1, thanks for the related data. After hearing arguments that all speaker wire is identical, then measuring for myself the affects that simple wire LAYOUT can even make, it pays to be open minded about these things.

        Comment


        • Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

          Originally posted by DDF View Post
          After hearing arguments that all speaker wire is identical
          Who stated this absurdity? Link?

          cheers,

          AJ

          Comment


          • Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

            Originally posted by Andy_G View Post
            G'day Dave. :D

            This is sooooo the reality of the case.

            Good to see you getting involved again.

            I also am pretty sure I have noticed the difference in resistors. Probably not a difference that could be picked up in a null biased ABX test, but so what.

            With all these 'tweaks' one has to use one's common sense and budget. If a person is in a position to try a tweak, then, why not. Science certainly doesn't know everything and those who are stuck with that notion are destined for mediocrity.
            There are unfortunately those SO merchants who put forward junk science in support of their products, but anyone with even a little bit of science can generally pick those.

            So, if people want to try a tweak, first look at the price vs budget vs possible benefit.

            DO.. Try to get a listen somewhere before purchasing.
            DO.. Listen to comments of people you trust and who have actually heard and listened.

            DO NOT.. take the word of reviews in magazines, they are more often than not 'paid'
            and
            DO NOT.. discard a tweak based on ABX tests, they are heavily weighted towards a null result.

            If that leaves things up in the air, or sitting on the fence.......

            Everything you said is spot on.

            A guy asks a question and we have this as a result. Not a "suck it and see" response in the lot, eh?

            I've always appreciated your tag:

            "If people want to listen to wiggles, that up to them....

            I prefer music."

            Pretty well sums it up, doesn't it?

            :D

            Dave
            "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

            www.piaudiogroup.com

            http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-rmaf...w-technologies
            http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/ramblings.htm
            http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/uber_buss.htm

            Comment


            • Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

              Originally posted by DDF View Post
              Dave#1, thanks for the related data. After hearing arguments that all speaker wire is identical, then measuring for myself the affects that simple wire LAYOUT can even make, it pays to be open minded about these things.
              It really is an endless debate, is is not. Kind of like : Irony, in itself, is ironic.

              :D

              Dave
              "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

              www.piaudiogroup.com

              http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-rmaf...w-technologies
              http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/ramblings.htm
              http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/uber_buss.htm

              Comment


              • Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                Originally posted by dbe View Post
                It really is an endless debate, is is not. Kind of like : Irony, in itself, is ironic.

                :D

                Dave
                Dave, that's so deep, I think I need trunks (playing off the wiggles joke...)
                http://www.yogabbagabba.com/#/aquabats

                AJ, I'm know you've never said it, but you've never heard people say that all zip cord of equal guage is the same? Now that I find hard to believe.

                The earlier post that RH-50 resistors had 0.22mH inductance had me sweating since I use them in my crossovers. So, I fired up the MLSSA tonight and measured the impedance of a few resistors in the audio band. All inductances are curve fit against a perfect inductor model, from 10 to 20 kHz, and with cross correlation factor shown (r=1.000 being absolutely perfect fit).

                Test set-up, straight wire: inductance = 0.000166mH, r = 0.53 (ie it was actually noise as a correlation of 50% = pure chance).

                8 ohm Dale RH-50 wire wound: 0.000358mH, R = 0.55. ie immeasurable, just test set noise

                10 ohm sand cast (Dale CP-10, 10W) wire wound: 0.00168 mH, R= 0.58

                10 ohm Dale CW-10 wire wound, 10W: 0.00407mH

                Solen Perfect Lay inductor, 18 guage, 0.2mH: 0.192mH, R=1.000

                Solen Perfect Lay inductor, 18 guage, 0.2mH, soldered to 8 ohm Dale RH-50 above in series: 0.194mH, R=1.000

                Solen cap. R = 1.000 (as a final validation of the test system)

                Good news, even relatively modest wire wounds and sand cast resistors have no inductance. I bought most of these at different surplus stores for less than a buck, so I'd be surprised if parts bought with real money were any worse in this regards.

                Comment


                • Re: A little story

                  Originally posted by ajinfla View Post
                  Right and make sure you see, know and at least mismatch the volume too. You'll get the desired results much better that way. That are scientifically valid too. Seriously.



                  You betcha. Pre-bias yourself as much as possible. Trust others who have actually heard and listened while seeing, knowing and fiddling with the volume. You'll get the results that are hidden by DBT's. Never nulls that way eh!!



                  Yep, we know endless nulls can only mean the tests are hiding the "real" differences that we "know" exist. And how do we "know" this? Well, by seeing, knowing, fiddling with the volume and then "just listening" and "hearing".



                  http://www.thewiggles.com.au/us/home/
                  Ummm, sure, if that's what they enjoy, why not?

                  cheers mate :p,

                  AJ
                  A little story. I stumbled onto the resistor thingy a few years ago completely by accident. Unforunately, my conclusions will bother the subjectivists and the objectivists, both. At the time I had an assortment of different makes and values of resistors that I used for crossover designing. Some of them were the same value too. While making an adjustment to a tweeter's level I was making some small, incremental changes in the series padding resistor. At one point I switched from a sandcast resistor to a significantly more expensive noninductive, and the difference was greater than I had anticipated. I found another sandcast the same value as the noninductive and used it and there was an obvious difference between the two. I assumed one of them was off in value so I used an LCR meter to check them and found them to be essentially identical in resistance. However, as I switched back and forth I could tell that there was an obvious difference in the sound coming from the tweeter depending on which one I used. I didn't have the means to do any more detailed measurements at the time - I only know that the character of the sound changed and the resistiance measured the same between them. I could have demonstrated that to anyone and I am sure most of them would have said there was a difference too. It was especially noticable with pink noise, even though the frequency response and tweeter level were, again, essentially identical. The thing was......I thought the cheap sandcast sounded much better, and something about the higher dollar noninductive irritated me and sounded grainy. As a result I never purchased that brand again, and I still have no issue using decent sandcast resistors.

                  Jeff B.
                  Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

                  Comment


                  • Re: A little story

                    Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
                    A little story..

                    Jeff B.
                    Jeff, good input, an excellent counterpoint to the assumed ubiquity of the bias hypothesis. I had the same experience with highly regarded zero capacitance coax interconnects that were all the rage at one point, that I went through significant trouble to procure and build. Awful high end IME.

                    Comment


                    • Re: A little story

                      Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
                      A little story. I stumbled onto the resistor thingy a few years ago completely by accident. Unforunately, my conclusions will bother the subjectivists and the objectivists, both. At the time I had an assortment of different makes and values of resistors that I used for crossover designing. Some of them were the same value too. While making an adjustment to a tweeter's level I was making some small, incremental changes in the series padding resistor. At one point I switched from a sandcast resistor to a significantly more expensive noninductive, and the difference was greater than I had anticipated. I found another sandcast the same value as the noninductive and used it and there was an obvious difference between the two. I assumed one of them was off in value so I used an LCR meter to check them and found them to be essentially identical in resistance. However, as I switched back and forth I could tell that there was an obvious difference in the sound coming from the tweeter depending on which one I used. I didn't have the means to do any more detailed measurements at the time - I only know that the character of the sound changed and the resistiance measured the same between them. I could have demonstrated that to anyone and I am sure most of them would have said there was a difference too. It was especially noticable with pink noise, even though the frequency response and tweeter level were, again, essentially identical. The thing was......I thought the cheap sandcast sounded much better, and something about the higher dollar noninductive irritated me and sounded grainy. As a result I never purchased that brand again, and I still have no issue using decent sandcast resistors.

                      Jeff B.
                      Just out of curiousity and a follow up to a post I made earlier... would you have had to make any crossover adjustments in order to compensate for either of the resistor's traits and still get the same level of neutrality in terms of tonal balance?
                      RJB Audio Projects
                      http://www.rjbaudio.com

                      Comment


                      • Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                        Hmmmm That certainly adds another perspective to the debate. My read is that in both cases there was an unidentified factor contaminating the results. I'm not going to believe anything anyone has to say (and that includes anything I have to say) until there have been many, many replications of properly controlled ABX tests. But, as an enforcer of deceptive advetising statutes for over 30 years, I still find it amazing that we aren't placing the substantiation burden on the advertisers, just like we do in any other industry. You're selling expensive resistors? you're claiming they sound better? What is your substantiation? Let's see your theory. Let's see your tests (within reason--I don't want to burden start-up companies with $million "clinical" trials). Dennis

                        Comment


                        • Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                          It seems to me that even with measurements that showed the difference between resistors on paper the specs would never justify the price difference in the minds of most. This being the case there is no incentive from a marketing POV for the cost/scale of research it would take to document the disparity. Consequently why would a manufacture want to mess with all that when word of mouth is free? Whatever difference there is, its not like proving the The Higgs boson or maybe it is, depends on your spiritual speaker philosophy.
                          Caleb b

                          Comment


                          • Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                            Originally posted by caleb View Post
                            It seems to me that even with measurements that showed the difference between resistors on paper the specs would never justify the price difference in the minds of most. This being the case there is no incentive from a marketing POV for the cost/scale of research it would take to document the disparity. Consequently why would a manufacture want to mess with all that when word of mouth is free? Whatever difference there is, its not like proving the The Higgs boson or maybe it is, depends on your spiritual speaker philosophy.
                            Well, I guess it depends on whether they think they have a legal obligation. I don't think I'm giving anything away when I say the FTC isn't likely to enter this particular debate. I'm sure taxpayer dollars would be better spent enforcing deception laws in markets where buyers are a little less obsessed and are buying products a little closer to everyday essentials, like food and housing. But that still doesn't mean you shouldn't be dubious of claims that aren't backed up by a reasonable basis.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                              poor AJinFLA,

                              It was meant as advice for those considering, NOT for those with a locked mind.

                              I'm sure with your considerable audio experience (lmao) you have ALL the facts on audio at hand. As I said.. lock in mediocrity.

                              when you have learnt to listen PAST minor volume differences then perhaps you will understand that not everyone has your lack of insight.

                              come back in, say, 5 years , and we can discuss things, until then, your pov is (imo) just a waste of time. ! :D

                              I also find it quite sad for you that you have so little faith in your own hearing that you think everyone else is ruled by pre-concieved ideas.
                              I, for one, have often heard differences when I didn't expect to, AND, not heard differences when I expected to.

                              Start learning to listen and please, have some faith in yourself. :D
                              If people want to listen to wiggles, that up to them....

                              I prefer music.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

                                Critofur,

                                Let Your Ears Decide.

                                Take your best headphones and your best headphone amp. Get a simple high current, low contact resistance, DPDT switch. Select two each, Mills resistors and sand cast resistors, non-inductive or just plain sand cast resistors that have a resistance approximately equal to the impedance of your headphones. Wire up the resistors to the four outside poles of the switch; one stereo pair for each side using the same resistor type. Then wire the resistors up to a headphone plug and the center contacts of the switch to a headphone jack. Solder everything securely.

                                Then listen away; try pink noise, tones, and various music of your preference while toggling back and forth and see what you hear. Let someone else flip the switch without you looking and see if you can hear a difference.

                                Louis

                                Comment

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