Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

[romanbednarek]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I'd like to add a few comments.

Blind ABX tests aren't perfect but I would have to say based on experience that I would trust them over most other type of tests, especially ones where the devices playing are known.

Now the biggest strike against most blind ABX tests where people can't consistently note a difference between whatever components are compared is that this conclusion is scientifically inconclusive and doesn't prove that there are no differences sonically between what is being compared. Also, the system used in the comparison often comes into debate (usually people say that the resolution is lacking so minor differences can't be revealed). The point that I'm getting at here is that even if one of these tests (like the one Dennis mentioned above) doesn't prove that there are no differences between resistors, for example, what it does prove (in my mind) is that even if differences exist, they are below the threshold of most people's hearing and that extra money spent on that component will give very little return if any. With anything audio related I always try to consider the cost to benefit ratio and I think that there are varying degrees of this ratio in the audio chain. You must also look at the audio chain by considering the "weakest link" analogy and sometimes spending money on expensive crossover components can be a waste of time if the chain is much weaker somewhere else.

For the record, I don't spend a lot of money on crossover components nor have I done any studies in this area. I've always found that fully optimizing a crossover is very critical to getting the best sound out of a design but I've never considered the possibility that swapping in higher cost components would improve the sound (or even make me re-adjust the crossover). I think the main reason why I don't like to spend a lot on crossover parts is because if I had that extra money to put into the design I feel that it would be better spent on higher quality drivers (which hits on my statement above about how much return you get on your investment).

[philiparcario]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I'm assuming your measured this inductance. This seems very high for a 2 ohm wire wound resistor. I've measured several Xicon WW resistors available at PE and they generally measure in the microhenries. I've also used Vishay/Dale and Arcon power resistors in crossover designs before with no audible differences when sub'd in, -but I didn't use a 2 ohm, so my findings may not be germane in this case.

Other observations:
It appears that Mad is having difficulty obtaining Eagle resistors and are replacing them with the $2.50 ea. 2% Mundorfs. Like Mills, these have the value stamped on them, so those color-code challenged builders will be pleased. The leads on the Mundorfs are about the same diameter as the Eagles. -that is not as beefy as the Mills, but otherwise appear to be a good product. I can’t comment on their ‘sound’, as I’ve not made any effort at comparison.

I too like the Mills for their robust construction, and they remain my first choice for resistors. If your design is really cost sensitive, I see no reason not to use the Xicon wire wound resistors in lieu of the more expensive Mills, especially when you are in the prototyping stage, and are not sure of the necessary final values.

C

I used a hi end lcr meter a B & K precision. .22mH was the reading. Remember it is a 50 watt rated resister. the pe 10 watts read .041mH much less.

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I think revealing in this case is not a scientific term

Yes, I knew that. Like all things audiophile, unconstrained by physical reality, it is whatever the user wants it to mean.

Good luck on this not turning into a nonsense debate ;)

Luck isn't a requirement. Just the uninformed/ignorant who are either too vain, or simply cannot discern between psychogenic events and the real world.

Yep, we've done A/B and A/B/X testing on Mills resistor, all kinds of caps and wire and all of the topics that invoke the ire of people like AJ, Daryl and the others that believe that what they do not understand cannot be true, ergo anyone that "hears" the differences must be a fool. Au contraire, mon ami.

It is the uninformed/ignorant of human psychology and the effect of metacognitive skills (or lack thereof) who truly understand the issues? It is Daryl and I who hold "beliefs" beyond known science?
What makes you believe that I(we) don't understand your disorder?

A standard resistor has a TCR in the 500-1000 ppm and a Mills is 20 ppm. This equates to less HF hash around cymbals and other steep transients.

Really? Because Dave says so? Because some have "heard it"? I have linked numerous scientific studies and papers in previous threads. Your link for this claim?

The easy way to tell without burning your brain up is in extended listening tests

More time is needed to fool oneself? Do the uninformed/ignorant know there is no time limit on ABX? That the brains auditory event memory is finite?

where the degree of listening fatigue is the clue to untrained listeners.

What?

A trained listener will pick a Mills out 10/10 in A/B/X.

Reference?

Also... wait for it, wait for it... A superior crossover component will pass the sound of a crappy source along better than an inferior one and will often be too revealing. It's kind of like a 12 mega-pixel image of a warthog - not pretty to look at. Also, note that I said image and not picture. Digital approximations are images. Analog photography produces pictures. Think about it.

Dave

If you claim so...

cheers,

AJ

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I don't want this to turn into a nonsense debate like the ones over speaker cables - but, I do want subjective opinions based on scientific tests.

****

Good luck on this not turning into a nonsense debate ;)

Yep, we've done A/B and A/B/X testing on Mills resistor, all kinds of caps and wire and all of the topics that invoke the ire of people like AJ, Daryl and the others that believe that what they do not understand cannot be true, ergo anyone that "hears" the differences must be a fool.

Au contraire, mon ami.

The difference in resistor is a simple, verifiable one. It boils down to TCR in the resistor. A standard resistor has a TCR in the 500-1000 ppm and a Mills is 20 ppm. This equates to less HF hash around cymbals and other steep transients. The easy way to tell without burning your brain up is in extended listening tests where the degree of listening fatigue is the clue to untrained listeners. A trained listener will pick a Mills out 10/10 in A/B/X.

Ask Wolf about listening tests. He is a killer when it comes to cap identification.

Also... wait for it, wait for it... A superior crossover component will pass the sound of a crappy source along better than an inferior one and will often be too revealing. It's kind of like a 12 mega-pixel image of a warthog - not pretty to look at. Also, note that I said image and not picture. Digital approximations are images. Analog photography produces pictures. Think about it.

Dave

I must ditto Curt here.

Film photography certainly is not better at resolution than the best digital photos. Both have "grain" and therefore are only approximations of the projected image at the focal plane.

In fact, digital photography will easily exceed the analog, as receptor density on the image plane can be much higher than with its film counterpart.

That being said, I'd still like to see someone use their ears to resolve which resistor the signal passes through.

[curt_c]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

Digital approximations are images. Analog photography produces pictures. Think about it.

Dave

Bad analogy Dave...
Analog photography does not provide infinite resolution, but is limited by the size of the grains of silver iodide. Consequently, by your definition, both digital and analog photography produce 'images'.

I've never read of any correlation between the Thermal Coefficient of Resistance, and the audible qualities of a resistor. Perhaps you'd like to suggest an article or paper that makes that assertion?

C

[billschu]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I found that MOX resistors do sound different than Mills. Mills have a warmer sound to them.

I have to agree here although the MOX seem to have a brighter or edgier sound to me. Perhaps it's in my head but given the choice, I just use the Mills non-inductive or Dayton sand cast resistors and I am fine. Even the Radio Shack sand cast 8 ohm resistors seem fine too. Just buy extras in case one is "off" spec.

The MOX difference really is small but for the small bump in cost, the Mills or Dayton are a good fit for yours truly. Other things like the driver choice, cabinet, and crossover design are bigger factors but every link in the chain does matter.

Bill

[dbe]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I don't want this to turn into a nonsense debate like the ones over speaker cables - but, I do want subjective opinions based on scientific tests.

****

Good luck on this not turning into a nonsense debate ;)

Yep, we've done A/B and A/B/X testing on Mills resistor, all kinds of caps and wire and all of the topics that invoke the ire of people like AJ, Daryl and the others that believe that what they do not understand cannot be true, ergo anyone that "hears" the differences must be a fool.

Au contraire, mon ami.

The difference in resistor is a simple, verifiable one. It boils down to TCR in the resistor. A standard resistor has a TCR in the 500-1000 ppm and a Mills is 20 ppm. This equates to less HF hash around cymbals and other steep transients. The easy way to tell without burning your brain up is in extended listening tests where the degree of listening fatigue is the clue to untrained listeners. A trained listener will pick a Mills out 10/10 in A/B/X.

Ask Wolf about listening tests. He is a killer when it comes to cap identification.

Also... wait for it, wait for it... A superior crossover component will pass the sound of a crappy source along better than an inferior one and will often be too revealing. It's kind of like a 12 mega-pixel image of a warthog - not pretty to look at. Also, note that I said image and not picture. Digital approximations are images. Analog photography produces pictures. Think about it.

Dave

[maynardg]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I think revealing in this case is not a scientific term, but an aesthetic one.

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I did a crossover change on some speakers with very revealing ribbon tweeters

Nate, what is the scientific definition for "very revealing" X?
What measured parameters of the tweeter (or X) have been scientifically validated to account for this "revealing"ness?
Is it by design or accident?

cheers,

AJ

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

the answer is yes high watt inductive resistors can roll off the top end. of course most crossovers dont use 50 watt resistors or 5 10 watt resistors. I agree that the mills and eagle resistors are better made. here is a link to a 2 ohm 50 watt resistor that will roll your tweeter off.

http://www.newark.com/vishay-dale/rh-50-2r000-1-0/power-resistor/dp/01F9897

this has an inductance of .22mh it will start to roll off at 5700hz, but using a 50 2 ohm resistor like this in a tweeter network is not a common thing to do.

Using a 10 watt 2 ohm inductive resistor
the mH is .04 ROLLOFF STARTS AT 31000hz. So if you are going to have issues with rolloff it looks like high powered tweeters needing very large powerhandling resistors would need the noninductive resistors. Since it is likely to be progear using large powerhandling mills are tougher then daytons.

If the resistor inductance is on par with the inductance of the tweeter voice coil, there will likely be no drop off at all in the high frequency performance.

If your tweeter has a rising impedance, a purely resistive L-pad can cause a rising output with frequency. An inductive resistor would mitigate that problem.

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I thought we had covered all this "wow what a difference" stuff already?

Btw, for those whose excuse is that blind tests mask the "differences" to below perception threshold levels or fail to show that there was no difference (prove a negative), can you explain how the existence of these "differences" (missed by the scientifically valid test) are being ascertained in the first place? Via?

cheers,

AJ

[natediggidy]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I did a crossover change on some speakers with very revealing ribbon tweeters using some Ratshack resistors because I'd read on some audio board about someone mentioning they were "surprising transparent" sounding. I later found the Dayton resistors I had wanted to use in the first place and put those in. Let me tell you, that guy's meaning of transparent is way different than mine. Wiring it up so I could switch between the two resistors by moving one lead, the Dayton's sounded alot clearer that the Ratshack resistors. I later tried some Mills's and there was a small difference. Nowhere near the difference between the Dayton and the Ratshack tho'.

Duely noted that these were not blind tests and the Daytons only cost about $.25 ea more than the Ratshack resistors.

[curt_c]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

the answer is yes high watt inductive resistors can roll off the top end. of course most crossovers dont use 50 watt resistors or 5 10 watt resistors. I agree that the mills and eagle resistors are better made. here is a link to a 2 ohm 50 watt resistor that will roll your tweeter off.

http://www.newark.com/vishay-dale/rh-50-2r000-1-0/power-resistor/dp/01F9897

this has an inductance of .22mh it will start to roll off at 5700hz, but using a 50 2 ohm resistor like this in a tweeter network is not a common thing to do.

I'm assuming your measured this inductance. This seems very high for a 2 ohm wire wound resistor. I've measured several Xicon WW resistors available at PE and they generally measure in the microhenries. I've also used Vishay/Dale and Arcon power resistors in crossover designs before with no audible differences when sub'd in, -but I didn't use a 2 ohm, so my findings may not be germane in this case.

Other observations:
It appears that Mad is having difficulty obtaining Eagle resistors and are replacing them with the $2.50 ea. 2% Mundorfs. Like Mills, these have the value stamped on them, so those color-code challenged builders will be pleased. The leads on the Mundorfs are about the same diameter as the Eagles. -that is not as beefy as the Mills, but otherwise appear to be a good product. I can’t comment on their ‘sound’, as I’ve not made any effort at comparison.

I too like the Mills for their robust construction, and they remain my first choice for resistors. If your design is really cost sensitive, I see no reason not to use the Xicon wire wound resistors in lieu of the more expensive Mills, especially when you are in the prototyping stage, and are not sure of the necessary final values.

C

[Cinemadesigner X]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

The main reason I can see for people disliking A/B testing is: the disappointment of not being able to hear a difference that they want to be there, that was thought to be there.

I think you underestimate the real appeal of a mills resistor. Forgive me for generalizing but the ones to suggest this psychological suggestibility always have some cheap angle. Being cheap...sometimes you win sometimes you lose.

When you're buliding a project that takes you six months and you've have rubbed and sanded the finish for 2 weeks, do you want to see a clunky looking generic wire wound resistor on your circuit board or a nicely crafted device like a Mills resistor. You are partially correct in the fact that you will feel better about using a mills resistor because in the face of the unknown or untested you know you've erred on the side of quality. Why don't you run "peace of mind" through your psychological filter and decide how much more important that maybe than anything else when it comes to the sound of a system. See AJinFla for reference to his wine example. Tricked or not they the expensive wine tasters are having a better time. Most DIY speakers have rough edges that resistor brand choice will make little difference in the outcome, but knowing you've taken every logical precaution to make the speaker the best you can....ahhh.

Most people buy audio tweaks because they are relatively cheap and in the face of the unknown its something to try. Most high-end speaker wire is bought simply because it is now an accepted practice and the fancy wire looks appropriate on a $30,000 system. Having a 20 guage 8ft zip cord wire simply makes one uneasy that they have left something out when trying to maximize the performance of their system. not everyone is an engineer or has that kind of mind. Its like having to buy cheap tires for your M3 or Cayman, its going to bother you.


For the record I do not use Mills resistors as a regular practice, nor do I believe I can hear a difference all things being equal and properly assembled.

[Face]

Re: Do Mills resistors REALLY sound different?

I found that MOX resistors do sound different than Mills. Mills have a warmer sound to them.