Dayton kit store equivelents

[stephed]

Has anyone done comparisions to store bought equivelents for the BR-1, RS621 or RS722. I"m seriously thinking of the RS722 kit. Would they be equal or better then paradigm monitor or studios(S40)series or polk LSI9.
Does anyone have a good comparisons becuase I have no way to demo before I buy.
I really like paradigm studio 40 but they are double the cost of the RS722 kiT.

Thanks for your help.

ED A

[philiparcario]

Re: Dayton kit store equivelents

THE BEST KIT PE SELLS IS THIS ONE

http://www.parts-express.com/project...project=USHERs THE UA721

THE COST IS 515 FOR EACH SPEAKER.. THE MTM VERSION. you can lower the cost by not using this cabinet.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...02-757&scqty=1 146 for 1

use this one instead

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=302-756 119 for one.

then it cost 27 less or 488 a speaker. this would be as good as the polk or the paradigm speakers IN MY OPINION.

[msk]

Re: Dayton kit store equivelents

I have a set of both Paradigm studio 40's and the Dayton RS722's and have A/B compaired on a Yamaha AV-R2500, and sonically I still prefer the studio 40's over the dayton, just personal choice, but the Dayton's got fatiguing for me in about 20 minutes, but the learning experience in building the kit is invaluable, and the cabinet is decent as well, the RS drivers are a bit harsh, just too much metal going on for my tastes, I also have built up several sets of the Usher 701 PE kit, not a bad entry at all, but still, not what I had expected, especially in such a spendy kit, little dissapointing..all subjective of course...do what youe ears say to you
My Paradigm studio 40's are 9 years old and they look and sound perfect, my dayton kits I have not had that long, so I do not know how well they would hold up over time, I listen to the Paradigm more than any other speaker....
one last exceedingly important item, the resale of the Paradigm Studio 40 is WAAAAY better than any dayton kit, but, as you stated, much more expensive to begin with...Best of luck on your search
Mark

[stephed]

Re: Dayton kit store equivelents

I have a pair of studio 100 V.2 and anthem amp & preamp, love them both. I would love to stick with the paradigm, but willing to take a chance.

Ed A

[Paul Carmody]

Re: Dayton kit store equivelents

one last exceedingly important item, the resale of the Paradigm Studio 40 is WAAAAY better than any dayton kit

Sigh. Such is the resale value of DIY. On the other hand, I don't think any store-bought speaker can surpass the amazing gratification you feel when you listen to speakers and you can think, "I built those!"

[shawn_a]

Yep

Ya got it right, Paul. You can't put a price on an intangible. Heck, I don't even think that with some designs, i.e. first solo design or first attempt at building and finishing your own enclosures, it's even possible to compare a DIY and store-bought speaker set. To me the two aren't the same because of the ability to say "Yeah, I built those." Sure it means I'll never see a sizable profit on anything I build as a DIYer but that's why it's a hobby to me. Some folks just need to stop thinking about it as a business and get down to having some fun.

shawn

[racineboxer]

Re: Dayton kit store equivelents

Well we've got one here that says Paradigm Studio 40's over the dayton kit but I've seen it the other way around other places (nat p kit). Paradigm is a highly respected, highly recommended company, so there is decent value there. Some people say the DIY way is 5-10x cheaper than store bought, although my conservative nature leads me to say 2-3x (especially considering highly respected companies like Paradigm who aren't ridiculously over priced to start with).

Those dayton 722 kits for $650 should compare to store bought speakers in the $1200-2500 range. Hell, the retailer probably pays about $600-750 for those studio 40's and then sells them for $1,200ish. Then subtract a couple hundred for Paradigm's profit off that $600 and it's pretty easy to see how those speakers probably only cost a couple hundred bucks in parts. And that's not an insult to Paradigm, they get nice reviews and IMO aren't typically thought of as very over priced.

[shawn_a]

Re: Dayton kit store equivelents

This is really a pretty interesting thread to me. It was a pair of Paradigm monitors that got me into really wanting to do the DIY stuff to begin with. While I can't say I've heard the Studio 40, I probably was turned on by one of their predecessors but I can't tell what the model number was. I remember the sound was really nice for a small pair of speakers.

Flash forward 18-20 years to the present day I couldn't even begin to compare the Paradigm offerings to the current Dayton kits available. However I have heard the original Dr. K MTMs (which the 722 arises from) and the Usher 701 and enjoyed both to a decently high degree. Would I have either in my home? Yep. Would I leave the crossovers as-is? Nope. Too much DIY in the blood to not want to tinker with things. I would reckon there are a fair amount of people who wouldn't mind taking a crack at mussing with the Paradigm's crossover either. That said, I think that you really can't go wrong with any of the kits mentioned in this thread so far but our ears are all different so it's pretty much a matter of personal preference.

While I've not heard the other Usher kits I'm going to go from past experience with the drivers used and say they probably sound really, really good. They would probably be a good first-time foray into DIY kits for people wanting to test the waters. And if the hook gets set deep enough people might even start playing around with the crossovers to fine tune the speakers' flavor to their own liking. But even straight out of the box I think the Usher kits would perform admirably.

shawn

[johnastockman]

Re: Dayton kit store equivelents

Shawn and 'boxer are on the right track here. Take it from an old retailer, those kits, from the modest BR-1 to the Ushers, offer better overall balance, smoothness, imaging and detail than their retail counterparts that cost between 3-5 times the kit cost. I've had numerous Polk and other well-known brands here, even the Para's. Paradigm's are not bad for a commercial speaker...Speakerlab here in Seattle sells 'em alongside their own kit & fully assembled designs. It seems to be a matter of SQ subjectivity, but there's very few commercial designs I could live with on a daily basis. B&W is one. If you're interested in re-sale value, buy a vintage motorcycle or car. As an example, I've had this discussion with many motorcyclists regarding a harley purchase in the past. They'd continually talk of higher re-sale. Fine, if you buy and sell bikes, but personally, I buy a bike to ride and have speakers for listening. Besides, with the bottom dropping out on those guys hoping to get the same or more $$ from their harley, it looks like their reasoning for buying failed...and that started before the economic woes. The Cycle Trader, classifieds and Craigs List around here are full of 'em and the price keeps going down. Just my opinion. But as Shawn said about hobby vs business or trying to make money (or break even)...DIY does offer good value for listening pleasure. Isn't that why folks buy or build speakers? The satisfaction from building and enjoying cannot be measured. It gets even better when family & friends hear how their commercial speakers fare against some DIY designs and want you to build them some!

John A.

[shawn_a]

Ya should have heard the Thiel 3.7

Those would have a very permanent home at my address if I would want to spend that kind of coin on speakers. First time in a long time I listened to a commercial speaker and was left a bit slackjawed. No complaints from this guy.

To add to my earlier post, I will stand behind the Dayton 621 kit as being a very good kit. While I've not heard this kit itself I have lived with the combination of the RS150 and RS28 for many years now. It's my daily listening speaker and it never fails to please me. While the crossover in the kit is different than my current iteration, I did try one very similar to it and it was fine with me. I just aimed for a lower part count and was pleased with the sound quality enough to let it be.

And for the record, I feel the Usher drivers are a notch above the Dayton RS drivers in most aspects. Even with the RS tweeter being sourced from Usher I do prefer the soft domed Usher tweeters with the 9950 being my favorite. Still that doesn't prevent me from listening to and loving my RS150/28 project.

So what's going on Brother Rat? Ever get out from under all the snow? We got a 12" power dump laid on us here last week and that was enough for my winter experience this year. I hate winter.:(

shawn

[critofur]

Re: Dayton kit store equivelents

Then subtract a couple hundred for Paradigm's profit off that $600 and it's pretty easy to see how those speakers probably only cost a couple hundred bucks in parts.

Commercially mass produced electronics goods generally "cost" less than 10% of the retail price to produce.

[johnnyrichards]

Re: Dayton kit store equivelents

Paradigm builds their own drivers in-house. They control everything from start to finish, and own one of the most advanced anechoic rooms in the world. I think they offer some excellent speakers for the guy who just wants to shell out his credit card and buy a pair. Due to their volume of sales, the actual cost (in materials) is probably quite a bit more than 10%.

Another company that is an excellent value in commercial speakers is NHT. their pedigree is outstanding (founded by no less a personage than Ken Kantor).

Surprisingly enough Infinity's entry level "Primus" series are outstanding values. You can pick up a pair of the Primus 6.5" bookshelfs for just a little more than the Dayton kit. My neighbor bought the BR-1 kit on my recommendation, and I don't see what the fuss is about. They actually kind of suck. He is going to do a crossover mod, I think it was dennis Murphy who posted one, and see how they go from there. He would have been better off buying a pair of the Primus 6.5" speakers. I have a pair of them I picked up for next to nothing and head-2-head they are better at everything but bass than the Dayton kit. The Dayton are still a good value and better than most speaks in the 100-400 dollar range, but unless you are determined to put it together yourself there are better options out there.

DIY is not a high value pursuit unless you like high end sound. If you buy a table saw and a miter saw and a router and a couple dozen clamps and this and that you soon have an initial investment of thousands into building your 2-way bookshelf speaker. The parts of the speaker may only cost 40 bucks per side, and good for us that's all we have to count in the price.


Paradigm and Polk and Infinity and all the rest don't have that luxury but some people who DIY will still insist their products are unilaterally overpriced and horrible sounding. This may have been true years ago, but the entry level modern speakers are seriously closing the gap, and in some cases have completely bypassed, entry level DIY.

I still like to build it myself though, I gotta have something to drive down the "per unit" cost of all my tools.;)

[Wushuliu]

Re: Dayton kit store equivelents

Along with the many good points already made, there's something to be said for having control over how your speakers sound. I don't know how easy the Paradigms are to modify but it's a comfort to know that I can modify the crossovers to my DIY speakers to provide the optimal experience for their environment. Too bright? No problem. More BSC? No problem. Shouty mids? a different cap'll change that.

Many of the wonderful design geniuses here would probably be willing to suggest crossover modifications if you have any of these issues w/ the kits 'out of the box'.

Sure you can maybe mess around with the 'tone' controls on your receiver, but depending on your set-up that probably won't help much or even worse, it may degrade the sound.

With retail you just kind of hope and pray that they'll sound as good in your living space as they did in the store.

And depending on the drivers and cabs you have, if you get tired of what you got then just get a new baffle and some new drivers or just switch out a tweeter maybe or...

You got options is what I'm sayin.

As for resale, it's relative isn't it? Paradigms are good but their not Martin Logan - used Paradigms are pretty cheap to come by.

However within the DIY community quality Usher drivers/tweets I'm sure will have a demand for a while and if you sold the drivers I bet the return would be equivalent to the Paradigms.

Sometimes, though, it's just easier to to say "charge it".

Before the recession anyway (another reason to DIY!):D

my dos centavos

w

P.S - I got the 621 kit and after modifying it, I believe it's worth double the money for sure.

[Paul Carmody]

Re: Dayton kit store equivelents

Commercially mass produced electronics goods generally "cost" less than 10% of the retail price to produce.

I dunno. I worked at Best Buy in college, and would frequently check the employee discount on the merchandise around the store (hey, who wouldn't?).

Our discount was approx 5% above cost. So using our employee discount meant we could buy the stuff for:
+Audio equipment (amps, players, etc.) = 50% of retail price
+Speakers = 50% of retail price
+CDs, Movies = 90% of retail price
+Video games = 50-75% of retail price
+Video game systems = no markup whatsoever. The stores make no money on these.
+Cables (interconnects, speaker wire, computer cables, etc.) = 5% of retail price

There were few exceptions to this rule. Except monster cable was always 50% of retail price. Oh, and I never bothered to check the markup on Bose.

[msk]

Re: Dayton kit store equivelents

from a prior post: "Some folks just need to stop thinking about it as a business and get down to having some fun".....Economics are the major player right now, money is blood...fun is lots of CASH!