Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

[bobbarkto]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

I usually brush the lighter cuts (first coats) and pad the heavier cuts.
If you can spray, so much the better, but padding can achieve some pretty good results.

ArmRSeal is good stuff.
You can probably wipe it on and not have to worry about brush work but it is easy to apply either way. It's a bit thinner than most varnish.
You'll have a quart and a half left over! ;)

Put the left over in a smaller container or it will gel in short order. Fill the container as full as possible to eliminate trapped air. Better to waste a little than under fill a larger container.

Mark, your speakers look amazing :eek: Great work!

I just purchased the following:

one pound of dewaxed garnet shellac from shellac.net
two quarts of denatured alcohol from shellac.net
two quarts of General Finishes Arm-R-Seal from woodcraft
one gallon of the roller version of DuraTex (the smallest size the sell)

I overbought on everything so that I would have plenty of material for trial and error as well as future use (I have a lot of this veneer)

I have one final question: what's the best way to apply the shellac? I see that you can pad it, brush it, rub it, etc. Any advantages/disadvantages to one vs the other? I'll get my gloss finish from my top coat, so I would imagine that the base coats won't matter a ton as long as they're uniform and I have a thick enough sealer layer.

[gumert]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

Mark, your speakers look amazing :eek: Great work!

I just purchased the following:

one pound of dewaxed garnet shellac from shellac.net
two quarts of denatured alcohol from shellac.net
two quarts of General Finishes Arm-R-Seal from woodcraft
one gallon of the roller version of DuraTex (the smallest size the sell)

I overbought on everything so that I would have plenty of material for trial and error as well as future use (I have a lot of this veneer)

I have one final question: what's the best way to apply the shellac? I see that you can pad it, brush it, rub it, etc. Any advantages/disadvantages to one vs the other? I'll get my gloss finish from my top coat, so I would imagine that the base coats won't matter a ton as long as they're uniform and I have a thick enough sealer layer.

[mgrabow]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

The tip on the oils in the rosewood is right on.... Be sure to use ONLY dewaxed shelac... Possible a grain filler or add several coats of shelac sanding between them... Some guys dismis grain filler but if you want it to look like glass, it is the only way to go...

I alway use just a clear finish. here is the easiest finish...

General Finishes Arm-R-Seal

Wipe on, brush on, spray on....No drips, no bubbles, no problems.... can give you a high build in 3-6 coats....


Mark

https://www.pirateacoustics.net

[gumert]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

Thanks for all of the extremely helpful replies. It looks like I will use Duratex roll on for the baffles. I'll just have to make sure that I use a finely textured roller. This is probably my easiest option as rattle cans are hard to get even coverage with and I don't have a compressor or spray gun.

As for the shellac, let me make sure that I have the process correct (as per Bob Barkto's advice):
1. Sand veneer as I did before staining my last project
2. Apply a few thin/light cut coats garnet shellac. Sand if necessary.
3. Apply a heavier coats of shellac to act as a sealer. Don't sand.
or
3. Apply three layers of Zinser seal coat. Don't sand.
(which of these is a "better" option?)
4. Top with varnish of my choice. I'll try out Varathane's products.

I didn't realize that I needed a pretty steep angle of attack with my brush when applying varnish. That was probably the problem I ran into last time.

Thanks for all the advice so far. If anyone else has any more input feel free to post it.

[bobbarkto]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

My general rule of thumb is dark shellac on dark wood. It seems to work best most of the time, but not always.
For a "white" finish, one that imparts the least color, blonde dewaxed followed by lacquer or wb acrylic based finish is the most white you can probably get. But I think the wood deserves better.
Test a little if you can and see. The garnet shellac really adds a bit to those woods.

Shellac will be a sealer if used under lacquer or varnish.
Apply one or two light coats (~1/2-1lb cut) followed by one medium coat (~2lb cut) or three coats of Zinser seal coat. Don't sand the last coat!! You'll cut through in places and defeat the purpose of sealing in the oil. If you have to sand out any imperfections then re-apply another coat before proceeding to your top coat.

For solvent/oil based varnish I like Varathane brand about the best. Minwax is good too, but it's a little on the thin side so it takes more coats to build and can drip if you're not careful.

About any name brand varnish will be up to the task tho, so choose on look and ease of use.

A few tips on varnish in general.

Bubbling can be caused by excessive brushing, vigorous brushing, too high brush angle, foam brushes used incorrectly, shaking the varnish instead of stirring it, brushing in two directions.

Varnnish should be flowed on in long even strokes with a very full brush held at a fairly low angle to the surface, maybe 20-30 degrees (it depends on varnish, wood and temperature). Med, soft bristles are best. A brush that holds a lot is handy.
Most finishers "tip off" a flowed on coat. Raise the brush to about a 45-55 deg angle to the surface and just lightly drag the tips of the bristles along the previous stroke to help level and smooth the finish. Must be done immediately after a flow coat, while the varnish is still liquid enough to not drag.
After a thorough dry you can sand down any imperfections and apply two more coats. The last two usually go on very easy. A foam brush can be used for the last coats. Just be sure to flow and tip off as with a bristle brush. Don't apply much pressure, that's when the bubbles come out to play. Keep the brush loaded.


There are several basic resins used that affect the color and durability.
First for durability is phenolic resin, dark amber red, used mostly in spar and marine varnish. Usually blended with some of the mentioned below.
Next is alkyd or alkyd modified. Most common and in the middle AFA durabilty and amber tone. It's probably the color most folks have in mind when they think of a varnish finish.
Next is a soy or soy alkyd modified. These are the "water white" varnishes. Only commonly available one I know of is Pratt & Lambert. Good stuff if you need a light color.

Many other resins and oils are commonly blended in, including polyurethane, urethane, tung oil, linseed oil (in almost all of them) etc.

Polyurethane and urethane resins are expensive. If the varnish is inexpensive there isn't much in it. You really don't gain anything from inexpensive poly varnish.

Hope this is helpful.

...

I guess the best option (due to the oily nature of rosewood) is to sand, apply shellac to the bare wood, seal it (with what?), then apply some kind of polyurethane top coat to give it a nice shine and keep the moisture out. Does this sound like a good idea? If so, can someone please suggest some good products to use (the last poly I used had a tendency to get bubbles under it, which made it a pain to apply).

As for the shellac, I'm thinking that a blonde would be the best option as far as color goes. I don't want to change the way the rosewood looks color wise, I just want to give it some added luster as I said earlier. Would this be the case or am I better off going with a darker shellac?

Thanks all for the input so far.

[Ludo]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

Sorry it's taken so long for me to get back to this thread, the weekend was pretty hectic.

Duratex looks like the product I was thinking of (not sure that I like the faux leather look, but the picture on their website looks right. The only problem I see with it is the application - I don't know how well it will roll on compared to being sprayed. I'm not sure if anyone shoots it locally and I'm running out of budget room quickly. It would be nice to be able to be able to do this myself. Does anyone have any experience here?

Thanks all for the input so far.

I just finished putting 3 coats of Duratex on my project using a small roller and I really like the way it turned out. I've attached a photo but the textured finish does not show up well due to poor lighting. If you are interested I can go back and snap a better one. I got the best results using 3 medium-to-thin coats as the Duratex would tend to get lumpy when I tried to put it on too thick. Also, the roller can leave streaky lines if you press too hard, so after thoroughly coverning the surface, I would make a final pass with almost no pressure on the roller resulting in a perfectly uniform finish.

Louis

[donparsons]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

Bob Barkto gives excellent wood finishing advice. If you want great results and don't want to experiment follow his advice.

Another option to the duratex is a black hammered finish out of a spray can. I did it on the back of a subwoofer I built and it turned out excellent. It tooa a couple coats of primer and two coats of the hammered finish and I was very happy with the result.

I have not used duratex.

[zomby woof]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

Faux leather is pretty much how I would describe the look on my first attempt.
I finished painting the frame on my motorcycle, and had about half a spray can left. It never occured to me to use it on cabinets, but the look was good, and at the same time, I had a set of small cabinets ready for finishing, so I thought I'd try it out.
I'd do it again.
The instructions should tell you how much coverage there is in a can, so you can budget accordingly.

[Dean1000]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

I have used the Duratex roll on finish. You can get a fairly fine texture with it if you use a 1/4" nap roller and water it down slightly. That is what I did on some bass bins that I built. I do not have any experience with the spray on Duratex.

I used it mainly because I did not want to spend a ton of time on finishing with veneer or a premium paint job.

If I were you and spending a fair amount of time on finishing your project, I would try various products out on a test piece in order to determine which you prefer.

[gumert]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

Sorry it's taken so long for me to get back to this thread, the weekend was pretty hectic.

Duratex looks like the product I was thinking of (not sure that I like the faux leather look, but the picture on their website looks right. The only problem I see with it is the application - I don't know how well it will roll on compared to being sprayed. I'm not sure if anyone shoots it locally and I'm running out of budget room quickly. It would be nice to be able to be able to do this myself. Does anyone have any experience here?

As for the veneer, I must say thanks for all the complements I've gotten on it so far. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what I should do with it. I've never really worked with wood before other than applying stain and then polyurethane to some red oak on a previous project. As an added bonus, these speakers will be subjected to a hot/humid environment this summer (no central air :(), so whatever I do will need a finish that won't be impacted much by high heat/humidity.

I guess the best option (due to the oily nature of rosewood) is to sand, apply shellac to the bare wood, seal it (with what?), then apply some kind of polyurethane top coat to give it a nice shine and keep the moisture out. Does this sound like a good idea? If so, can someone please suggest some good products to use (the last poly I used had a tendency to get bubbles under it, which made it a pain to apply).

As for the shellac, I'm thinking that a blonde would be the best option as far as color goes. I don't want to change the way the rosewood looks color wise, I just want to give it some added luster as I said earlier. Would this be the case or am I better off going with a darker shellac?

Thanks all for the input so far.

[jonpike]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

On the bedliner, you might look around and see if there's a commercial spray bedliner guy around, and see if he'd be willing to do some work with you.

I've talked to a guy, still haven't gotten around to getting something sprayed, and he was rather interested... said I might have to leave boxes for a bit till he had a job, but it would only be a few bucks a square foot to spray mine after he setup for the truck job. He showed me some samples of various textures and such he could do with the gun.

I've had one experience with the roll on bedliner... difficult to get a consistent texture since it dries so fast, was eating my foam rollers at the same time...
the spray cans had disappeared for 6mo in CA, but are back now, so I've never used them.

[bobbarkto]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

If you sand the wood up to 320 - 400 grit it will appear almost polished without any finish.

After that a couple of coats of dewaxed garnet shellac will do wonders for the color and depth.

You can follow up with a topcoat of varnish or clear lacquer if you like more depth and protection. Most water borne clears will work well over the shellac too.

Just make sure the shellac is dewaxed if you plan a topcoat of any kind.

I'd avoid any lacquer, oil based varnish or other oil finishes without sealing with the dewaxed shellac.
The oil in rosewood usually interferes with drying.
Straight / pure oils are the worst, varnishes high in oil content are right behind. Lacquer is iffy at best. Water bornes will dry ok but sometimes have adhesion problems and can cloud or get dull or milky looking.

Another option that is simple and effective is teak or marine oil. These oils are formulated for application on oily wood.

Sand as above. Apply a light coat of oil (usually thinned, check the label) and let dry for 36-72 hours. Longer if it's cool/damp.

Then wet sand with 320-400 wet or dry paper using a generous amount of the oil as lube. Wipe away all excess oil and allow to dry. Apply a few more light coats straight up, let dry between coats.

[zomby woof]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

I've used spray on bedliner, and you can vary the degree of texture by changing the spray technique.
I was happy with the results, and would use it again.

[biff]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

That is some beautiful rosewood! When any unfinished fine wood is photographed it is wet slightly, or wiped with alcohol, mineral spirits, or something that will give a buyer an idea what it will look like when it is finished. Normally it will look less colorful, and less contrasty. I have used rosewood veneer and I finished mine with tung oil - but yours can be way nicer, that is amazing figure! If you want to preview yours, use butcher block oil, mineral spirits, etc., if you use water or even alcohol to some extent it will raise the grain, but won't effect stain absorption. You might use a thinned poly for a first coat, followed by a wipe on as it's easiest to use. Can't wait to see how yours ends up - keep us posted.

[Ludo]

Re: Need finishing help (veneer + bed liner like product)

Are you thinking of Duratex? Its a polymer coating similar to bedliner. Louis

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...hlight=duratex