2 way vs. 2 way + sub

[MSaturn]

So I've been throwing out system plans for some time now, but finances have kept me from building anything!

I'd really like to do that 8945A/Neo8 business, but recent events have made that impractical.

I've designed a pretty simple two-way using the SB Acoustics 5" driver and the 810921. Really low distortion, excellent frequency response, and so forth - not difficult with drivers of this quality.

Now, since I recently got back a hold of two L26RFX/Ps I once owned, I modelled one of them as a subwoofer and it turns out the thing would be flat to 20Hz in-room (and, of course, SEAS drivers have ridiculous excursion capability, so it could probably actually GET that low.)

So here's the plan: build the two-way and the SEAS sub - which, btw, is going in a 1 cu. ft box with an aperiodic vent, and will use the dayton amp with 6dB of boost at 30Hz - and call it a day. Low-distortion and good power response, as well as excellent frequency response, from 20Hz-20Khz. Dream come true, right?

Well, truth is, even if they lack ultra bass, I've always preferred full-range 2-ways. The SB driver above is slated to be placed in a .2 cu. ft net box and crossed over at 80 or 100Hz LR2, which allows it to take about 100 watts.

I certainly can't build a full-range two way (say, with the 8945A) for about $350, which is what I estimate the total system cost will be at this point, including things I already have. But do you all think it's worth it to spend a little more? What are your thoughts on sub integration?

Also, one or both of those L26's are for sale, as well as two XT25's and some PL11-04's. Way cheap. Look in the classified section.

[nick29498141]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

The thing is - Once you take the time, materials and money to properly integrate a sub into a 2-way, you may as well have just built a 3-way.

Have you considered going with more cost-effective drivers?

NK

[MSaturn]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

Er, the SB15 is about $50 and is about 99% of the performance of a $220 SS driver.

The 810921 is probably the best tweeter for the money available ..

I think the drivers are plenty cost effective, heh

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

So I've been throwing out system plans for some time now, but finances have kept me from building anything!

I'd really like to do that 8945A/Neo8 business, but recent events have made that impractical.

I've designed a pretty simple two-way using the SB Acoustics 5" driver and the 810921. Really low distortion, excellent frequency response, and so forth - not difficult with drivers of this quality.

Now, since I recently got back a hold of two L26RFX/Ps I once owned, I modelled one of them as a subwoofer and it turns out the thing would be flat to 20Hz in-room (and, of course, SEAS drivers have ridiculous excursion capability, so it could probably actually GET that low.)

So here's the plan: build the two-way and the SEAS sub - which, btw, is going in a 1 cu. ft box with an aperiodic vent, and will use the dayton amp with 6dB of boost at 30Hz - and call it a day. Low-distortion and good power response, as well as excellent frequency response, from 20Hz-20Khz. Dream come true, right?

Well, truth is, even if they lack ultra bass, I've always preferred full-range 2-ways. The SB driver above is slated to be placed in a .2 cu. ft net box and crossed over at 80 or 100Hz LR2, which allows it to take about 100 watts.

I certainly can't build a full-range two way (say, with the 8945A) for about $350, which is what I estimate the total system cost will be at this point, including things I already have. But do you all think it's worth it to spend a little more? What are your thoughts on sub integration?

Also, one or both of those L26's are for sale, as well as two XT25's and some PL11-04's. Way cheap. Look in the classified section.

Why not just re-work a new XO for the drivers you have? They're certainly capable, especially the L26 and XT25. If you want that low distortion midrange, then just find a suitable mid to fill the need. Crossed at 2500Hz, the XT25 is tough to beat.

[blamus]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

I've always been puzzled by a similar question: 3way or 2way+sub. The way I see it though, is that the average modern home reciever puts out 100W per channel, or at least my amp is, and if its a full range 3 way then I'd be playing the bass with only 100W or so, probably less. With a sub though, I'd have much more power on tap for the bass. It kind of makes sense until I listen to 3way or even 2.5 ways speakers and realize thats more than enough bass, so I guess at the end of the day, the sub is really only needed for movies?

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

I've always been puzzled by a similar question: 3way or 2way+sub. The way I see it though, is that the average modern home reciever puts out 100W per channel, or at least my amp is, and if its a full range 3 way then I'd be playing the bass with only 100W or so, probably less. With a sub though, I'd have much more power on tap for the bass. It kind of makes sense until I listen to 3way or even 2.5 ways speakers and realize thats more than enough bass, so I guess at the end of the day, the sub is really only needed for movies?

It is the rare musical cut with extension below 30Hz, so your assessment of a sub being needed only for movies is fairly accurate. However, on those occasions where first octave response is needed to reproduce the tactile experience of a cannon in the 1812 overture, or the massive kettle drums, having that extension on hand is so rewarding to the ears and gut . . .

[MSaturn]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

I do indeed enjoy my serious bass. I'm a big fan of Vangelis, who plays a Bosendorfer Imperial 290(which is one of the bassiest pianos in the world.) With that extra extension, hearing those bass strings vibrate is incredibly rewarding.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

I do indeed enjoy my serious bass. I'm a big fan of Vangelis, who plays a Bosendorfer Imperial 290(which is one of the bassiest pianos in the world.) With that extra extension, hearing those bass strings vibrate is incredibly rewarding.

Then use both 10" woofers, one in each of two 3-way speakers. Like I mentioned before, the XT25 is a superb tweeter above 2500Hz. Perhaps if you want to improve the mid, then you might consider a TB underhung, the Peerless 831882, or the SB driver you mentioned. Two 10s are better than one!! :D

[MSaturn]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

One concern is portability - moving two very large speakers is harder than two tiny monitors and a 1 cu ft. sub.

Right now, my options are open. Optimally, I'd like to do a semi-active 3-way where the bass sections were self-powered. I'm out one amp, though, and my preamp only does mono sub output.

[HareBrained]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

One option would be to use the L26 and a full-range driver, bi-amped of course. There are several very good options. I'd use the Mark Audio Alpair 10FR but then I'm very happy with my MA CHR-70 which would be a very economical choice. You could also use the Fostex FE126 or FE108(sigma). Or Audio Nirvana Super 8. Or many others. The more bass you can remove from the full range driver, the more it will reward you, although the 150Hz Fc is high enough to make a significant improvement.

If this intrigues you, checkout the Full Range forum at DIYAudio, and then look for EnABL'ing drivers. This is an inexpensive, tedious but very worthwhile mod for full range drivers.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

One option would be to use the L26 and a full-range driver, bi-amped of course. There are several very good options. I'd use the Mark Audio Alpair 10FR but then I'm very happy with my MA CHR-70 which would be a very economical choice. You could also use the Fostex FE126 or FE108(sigma). Or Audio Nirvana Super 8. Or many others. The more bass you can remove from the full range driver, the more it will reward you, although the 150Hz Fc is high enough to make a significant improvement.

If this intrigues you, checkout the Full Range forum at DIYAudio, and then look for EnABL'ing drivers. This is an inexpensive, tedious but very worthwhile mod for full range drivers.

You left out one of the nicest full rangers around, the Tang Band 1337.

EnABL'ing? Well, I'll keep my thoughts on that to myself.

[MSaturn]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

The FR88-EX would also be a good choice for a strange MW 2-way.

Not sure if I want to deal with the beaming, though.

I modelled up an 8945A/XT25 combo that looks pretty good. I'd still use it with the L26 sub, though. 7" woofers simply do not have the excursion for seriously low frequencies.

[AudioMixer]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

I've always been puzzled by a similar question: 3way or 2way+sub. The way I see it though, is that the average modern home reciever puts out 100W per channel, or at least my amp is, and if its a full range 3 way then I'd be playing the bass with only 100W or so, probably less. With a sub though, I'd have much more power on tap for the bass. It kind of makes sense until I listen to 3way or even 2.5 ways speakers and realize thats more than enough bass, so I guess at the end of the day, the sub is really only needed for movies?

I agree, I've always felt a sub creates too much bass and sometimes sounding overly bloated..! A sub on the other hand is great for movie soundtracks - only. :D

[brianpowers27]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

If you've got the time and energy to design it the three way is a little more versatile. The extra presence of the woofer fills in the oft neglected 100hz range. This area tends to be underdeveloped when crossed over in many systems between a sub and 2 way.

The 2 way + sub is much easier to design. But proper sub configuration is not easy. Like Audiomixer said, most sub implementations miss the mark.

[HareBrained]

Re: 2 way vs. 2 way + sub

EnABL'ing? Well, I'll keep my thoughts on that to myself.

You don't have to. I'm very interested in what your thoughts are. I've come to respect your opinion. I haven't heard any drivers modified as such. There are some strong proponents of the process on DIYAudio. I was going to try it on my CHR70's because of a couple of "reports" stating some significant improvements, but I will form my own opinion. I've been listening to these drivers for 4 months and have a fairly good understanding of what they're capable of unmodified.

As I said before, I'm really enjoying these drivers. I recently pulled out my PS Audio DAC and these drivers were able to exhibit the differences from my NAD CD player. My equipment isn't great but it's not bad either, and these drivers are not the weakest link.