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  • Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

    So I've got a new man cave in our new house... it's nice and big, it's all mine, so I can put my speakers wherever I darn well please

    So I decided to try the "Golden Ratio" method, since I actually have the room to.

    I learned about it here... http://www.cardas.com/content.php?ar...ing=Room+Setup

    Here's the "Golden Ratio" diagram, for rectangular rooms:



    You can tell by the pictures that it's massively inconvenient if you plan on using the room for anything other than a listening room... I'm also using it as a workout room, which is convenient, since having the workout bench perfectly positioned as a listening seat is a lovely way to procrastinate that next set :p

    The room is approx. 19' wide X 25' long... so following the above formula, the speakers (measured from the center of the woofers) ended up being 63.25" from the side walls and 102.50" from the front wall... while this wasn't any real change from how I had it before in terms of distance from the side walls, it's a HUGE difference from how they far away they were from the front wall (was about 30").

    Listening position (where your head would be while procrastinating your next bench press) forms an exact equilateral triangle with the speakers. Not sure if you can see in the pix, but I've also got some rigid fiberglass panels temporarily propped up on the side walls and front wall to catch first reflections. Rear wall has no treatment.

    So.... yes, this made a really big difference... the sound stage is much deeper and more spacious now, and yet the imaging is also tighter... Miles and Coltraine sounded incredible. Every musician had their own distinct position about 10 feet behind the speakers... close your eyes and smile

    If you have the room to try this, I highly recommend it.

    The speakers are Zaph SR71's, by the way, with an 8" TB Neo sealed sub... haven't gotten a chance to play around with the position of the sub yet, but so far it sounds great where it is now... planning on replacing it with a bigger one, so I might not bother until the new one is born.

    I am a terrible photographer.










  • #2
    Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

    While your setup may well sound better using that formula not all will, as it doesn't consider Allison Effect. At 102 inches from the back wall you'll get a dip around 33 Hz, which doesn't affect the mains, or the subs for that matter with music, but it wouldn't be so great for the subs with HT LFE. If you previously had the cabs 30" out that would create a dip around 113 Hz and that would have been very noticeable. By and large you want to avoid having speakers a quarter wavelength from the rear wall within their passband.
    As far as the distance to the sidewalls is concerned having them identical looks good, but doesn't necessarily sound good, as whatever peaks and valleys thus created will occur at the same frequencies with both speakers. Symmetry pleases the eye, but asymmetry tends to be better on the ears. I'd try moving one of the mains a few inches in either direction and see if that's even better.
    www.billfitzmaurice.com
    www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

      Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
      Symmetry pleases the eye, but asymmetry tends to be better on the ears. I'd try moving one of the mains a few inches in either direction and see if that's even better.
      Makes sense. I'll try it. Thanks Bill!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

        Many moons ago, I rented a place with a living/dining room about the same size... had a pair of DQ10 speakers at the time... about 2-3 ft from the back wall... and yes; it did sound nice!!
        Good set-up!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

          Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
          While your setup may well sound better using that formula not all will, as it doesn't consider Allison Effect. At 102 inches from the back wall you'll get a dip around 33 Hz, which doesn't affect the mains, or the subs for that matter with music, but it wouldn't be so great for the subs with HT LFE. If you previously had the cabs 30" out that would create a dip around 113 Hz and that would have been very noticeable. By and large you want to avoid having speakers a quarter wavelength from the rear wall within their passband.

          I can still put the sub elsewhere... If you're saying that the current distance effects the sub, then I could always move the sub closer to the front wall...

          Where should I put the sub?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

            looking at your setup i would think that the sound would be just awful. so color me amazed. the soundstage was actually behind the speakers? maybe a second sub in the back of the room would be good.
            " To me, the soundstage presentation is more about phase and distortion and less about size. However, when you talk about bass extension, there's no replacement for displacement". Tyger23. 4.2015

            Quote Originally Posted by hongrn. Oct 2014
            Do you realize that being an American is like winning the biggest jackpot ever??

            http://www.midwestaudioclub.com/spot...owell-simpson/
            http://s413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

              Once you get the "other" project done, I think you'll find the sound stage quite pleasing. They are designed to work best closer to the back wall however. 2'-4' is killer.

              Jim

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

                Originally posted by Jim Holtz View Post
                Once you get the "other" project done, I think you'll find the sound stage quite pleasing. They are designed to work best closer to the back wall however. 2'-4' is killer.

                Jim
                Which "other"?

                The Poor Man's?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

                  Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
                  Which "other"?

                  The Poor Man's?
                  Aren't you building Mini Statements?

                  Jim

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

                    Originally posted by Jim Holtz View Post
                    Aren't you building Mini Statements?

                    Jim
                    Nope, had to bail on those for financial reasons.

                    Only project in the works right now are Jay Kim's Poor Man's for my friend's 40th b-day

                    it'll be verrrrrry interesting to see how they compare to the SR71's...

                    build thread here...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

                      Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
                      Nope, had to bail on those for financial reasons.

                      Only project in the works right now are Jay Kim's Poor Man's for my friend's 40th b-day

                      it'll be verrrrrry interesting to see how they compare to the SR71's...

                      build thread here...

                      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=212718
                      Sorry to hear that. They usually kill the desire to build anything else. :D

                      Jim

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

                        Originally posted by Jim Holtz View Post
                        Sorry to hear that. They usually kill the desire to build anything else. :D

                        Jim
                        I'll bet.

                        Ended up building the SR71's instead, which are no slouch either. Very happy with them.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

                          Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
                          I can still put the sub elsewhere... If you're saying that the current distance effects the sub, then I could always move the sub closer to the front wall...

                          Where should I put the sub?
                          Not 1/4 wavelength away, which at 25 Hz is 11 feet, and at 100 Hz 2.8 feet, so if that's the bandwidth either less than 2.8 feet or more than 11 feet. That's only to prevent cancellation off the rear wall, other boundary issues and cabin gain affect position as well, so you have to fiddle with it to find the best spot.
                          www.billfitzmaurice.com
                          www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

                            Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                            While your setup may well sound better using that formula not all will, as it doesn't consider Allison Effect. At 102 inches from the back wall you'll get a dip around 33 Hz, which doesn't affect the mains, or the subs for that matter with music, but it wouldn't be so great for the subs with HT LFE. If you previously had the cabs 30" out that would create a dip around 113 Hz and that would have been very noticeable. By and large you want to avoid having speakers a quarter wavelength from the rear wall within their passband.
                            As far as the distance to the sidewalls is concerned having them identical looks good, but doesn't necessarily sound good, as whatever peaks and valleys thus created will occur at the same frequencies with both speakers. Symmetry pleases the eye, but asymmetry tends to be better on the ears. I'd try moving one of the mains a few inches in either direction and see if that's even better.
                            What's the derivative calculation for the Allison Effect?

                            NK
                            I'm just that guy. www.sru.edu Rock Solid.

                            "It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion."

                            L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Positioned speakers with the "Golden Ratio" method today...

                              Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
                              So I've got a new man cave in our new house... it's nice and big, it's all mine, so I can put my speakers wherever I darn well please

                              So I decided to try the "Golden Ratio" method, since I actually have the room to.

                              I learned about it here... http://www.cardas.com/content.php?ar...ing=Room+Setup

                              Here's the "Golden Ratio" diagram, for rectangular rooms:



                              You can tell by the pictures that it's massively inconvenient if you plan on using the room for anything other than a listening room... I'm also using it as a workout room, which is convenient, since having the workout bench perfectly positioned as a listening seat is a lovely way to procrastinate that next set :p

                              The room is approx. 19' wide X 25' long... so following the above formula, the speakers (measured from the center of the woofers) ended up being 63.25" from the side walls and 102.50" from the front wall... while this wasn't any real change from how I had it before in terms of distance from the side walls, it's a HUGE difference from how they far away they were from the front wall (was about 30").

                              Listening position (where your head would be while procrastinating your next bench press) forms an exact equilateral triangle with the speakers. Not sure if you can see in the pix, but I've also got some rigid fiberglass panels temporarily propped up on the side walls and front wall to catch first reflections. Rear wall has no treatment.

                              So.... yes, this made a really big difference... the sound stage is much deeper and more spacious now, and yet the imaging is also tighter... Miles and Coltraine sounded incredible. Every musician had their own distinct position about 10 feet behind the speakers... close your eyes and smile

                              If you have the room to try this, I highly recommend it.

                              The speakers are Zaph SR71's, by the way, with an 8" TB Neo sealed sub... haven't gotten a chance to play around with the position of the sub yet, but so far it sounds great where it is now... planning on replacing it with a bigger one, so I might not bother until the new one is born.

                              I am a terrible photographer.









                              Looks great!

                              Pounding out some leg curls while listening? :p

                              NK
                              I'm just that guy. www.sru.edu Rock Solid.

                              "It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion."

                              L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

                              Comment

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