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  • #31
    Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

    This was probably the most enjoyable Iowa event I've been to (the last three). They get better every year due to the dedicated work of the volunteers who set them up and their faimiles and the outstanding work and welcoming attitude of all the participants. Special thanks to Doug, his wife and son for everything, including welcoming a bunch of speaker geeks into their home Friday night, and also to Jason and Maynard for their help with door prizes and music.

    First off, the overall quality of the speakers seems to improve every year, not only in the sound, but in the looks of the entries. Each class was really excellent throughout and all the speakers were well done, but a few stood out to me as the best in their class. I will resrtict my comments to speakers I was not involved in the design of, so that takes out my entry and Paul's Marcatos.

    In the superbudget class, I liked Dirk's O-Really? (is that how you spell it, or just how you say it?), followed by Rory Buzka's "Stones". Very nice job fellas. They were both very well balanced, with nice voicing and considerable bass for the driver and box sizes.

    In the budget class there were some really excellent entries and for me, it was very close amongst about the top 5 or so. The top three in my book were Marty's Tandband 2way, Todd Premo's Cryolites and Wolf's "Max" (yup, Wolf, in that room I preferred them over the Vijon's!).

    If pressed to pick a winner, I would give the nod to Todd's Matrix, due to a smidge better midrange balance and clarity, though I preferred Marty's bass impelmentation. Really great job by all three guys and I can tell you that none of them would disappoint you.

    I thought the the budget class might be good enough to give the midrange a run for its money and it did, but the midrange entries did step the game up and satisfy with some outstanding entries and even closer competition. Not including Paul's Marcatos, my favorites were Curt's Mavericks (B version), Scott Sehlin's Matrix, Shawn's Arpeggios and Maynard's Ziron. I preffered the B version of the Mavericks because I thought the soundstage was more natural sounding, imaging was improved and the midrange seemed a little more open with improved woofer to mid balance. Fantastic job, Curt. Kudo's also to Wayne for creating a visually stunning and acoustically dead cabinet to go with the sound.

    I agree with Dirk, Scott's neo8 midrange/neo3 tweeter implementation was really excellent and if that had been combined with a little more stout bass section they might have cleaned up.

    Shawns Arpeggios are just flat out excellent all around, especially notable for competing with some excellent 3ways.

    I know Maynard did not have the Ziron's at their best. He said he had overworked them and lost some of the "magic" he had about a month ago. I can really identify with this, since I went through the same thing with the BaSSlines over the last 9 months. Still, they were one of the best. I believe he has them close and if he can get that magic back, they will be great. A very nice job on the cabinets and finish.

    Among these midrange entries, I'd have to give the nod to the Maverick-B as nudging out the rest. I can't imagine anyone not being thrilled to have any of them in their home. Great job guys!

    Also, the designer's music selections were excellent as well. I hope you all post your music selections in the music thread. It would be really great to have a compilation cd out of what all was played!
    Dan N.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

      Yeah, I think the Mavericks were the most impressive of the day. However I liked the A better. The bass presentation seemed a bit fluffy on B and it kept popping out at me enough that it became the overriding quality that I focused on. I was busy having a burrito (big shock) with Tom B. while the Judas Priest experiment was going on. Sorry I missed that.

      I thought the Matrix project was my revelation of the day. I've had this ongoing war with myself as to whether the Neo3 was worth working with and Scott nailed it down pretty well. The other neat-o project I really liked were the Thunderstiks. Might have to give those another listen-to in my house some day.

      Maynard, find that magic again and put it back in the Zirons. Don't get me wrong, they sounded great but I didn't get that big grin from them like last year. The BASSLines were absolutely stunning in all regards. Judging by how much Dan changed things from Dayton I have to say it was a huge change for the better.

      I'm going to take the opportunity to thank Paul K. for the 50 minutes of Q&A he gave me about TL design. It's good to know I was thinking of things in a more or less correct way. I had a lot of good thoughts going through my head on the drive home about getting my first TL project done now that my concerns were put to rest.

      Marty's cute towers did some really nice work. Good job on nailing that down, Dirk and Marty. Wolf's MAX project turned out as good as I hoped it would. The tweeter seemed a bit tizzy but overall I liked it.

      Thanks for the compliments on the Arpeggios, fellas. They worked better in the big room than they did in Dayton. Now it's time to get the money together to get their real enclosures closer to reality. They were in with some tough company in that class but ya know, I think they held their own well enough and didn't embarrass. Maybe I'll do another Usher fanboy specials but in a 3-way for next year.

      It was a great time. The day seemed to move along rather swimmingly even with the glitch we had.

      shawn
      My favorite woofer is a Labrador retriever.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

        My thoughts...
        First- thanks to all attending, the hosting Peterson family, and the guys doing the gathering of items and support for Doug.
        Also- thanks to those commenting on my speakers previously here and at the event. It's nice to know I'm not the only one that likes them....

        Now- I'm going to say first that I was further back than most of the other guys giving opinions, and the bass was a touch tubby for virtually everything presented. This could be attributed to the placement at the edges of the stage area, and the distance to my position. Anyway, most of the bass was the same to me in timbre, minus the differing extensions.

        Midrange:
        Curt's 'Maverick-A'. *Very smooth* bass, and extension all the waaaayyyyy doooowwwwwwnnnn. The B was a little boomy at my position, where the A was not.

        Paul K's 'Marcatos'- Still an engagingly clean design.

        Ed's 'Zapaton' needed some bass fine tuning, or moved back from the stage boundary. The MT was pleasant, but the bass just peaked all over everything in my spot.

        Scott's "Matrix" were smooth, and taut in the bass, while I felt the mids needed a touch more in level. Sorry you competed with Curt....

        Maynard's 'Ziran' I felt were a little reserved in the midrange, and I expected more. I think the tweeter is the weak link, just as Maynard suggested. Sound was nice.

        Shawn's "Arpeggios" did something for me, as I felt in some areas, they even exceeded the "Marcatos". Nice job, buddy!

        So, 123- Curt-A, Shawn's Arpeggios, and the Paul K. Marcatos.

        I will comment that I missed the JP 104dB spot, but it is not surprising. Those are nice. Again, great job, Dan!

        Budget:
        I won't comment on my own except that they were well received.

        I hope Robert reduces the bass a smidge. It was still decent, and much less parts than mine too!

        Marty- You know I felt they were a little laid back.:p

        The Cryolites are a little forward this time. I guess I prefer the 1st version of that xover. Nice job, Todd.

        I felt the RM6K was a little 'artificial' sounding. Needs some adjustments.

        Matt's experiments were decently tamed, but placing a resistor across the coil might lift the topend.

        Tommy- You're getting there, but I couldn't even get a center image at my position. The bass seemed out of phase.

        Rich (Turn2)- the Thunderstix I felt were lacking in the tweeter range. Lessen a series resistor a smidge and they will lock-in for certain.

        All of these were decent, 123 (and I'm biased): Cryolite, Vijon, Coppers.

        I think Rory won the superbudget class, but I can't get into the reasons why....

        It was all-in-all a great event, and I hope to attend again! As it turns out, I have the Josh Groban piece Curt used, and it's just not the same on my equipment at home.... :(
        Later,
        Wolf
        "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
        "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
        "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
        "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

        *InDIYana event website*

        Photobucket pages:
        https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

        My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
        http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

          What was the fellas name that was doing the testing in the other room?
          During lunch I took my speaker over there to be tested. It looked great and I would like to see the graph again for review. I know he saved it and took my email.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

            Originally posted by nordhaven View Post
            What was the fellas name that was doing the testing in the other room?
            During lunch I took my speaker over there to be tested. It looked great and I would like to see the graph again for review. I know he saved it and took my email.
            That was Dennis Jarchow, or "djarchow" around these parts. I know he intends to distribute his measurings at some point.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

              yes he said he will send early part of the week.
              " To me, the soundstage presentation is more about phase and distortion and less about size. However, when you talk about bass extension, there's no replacement for displacement". Tyger23. 4.2015

              Quote Originally Posted by hongrn. Oct 2014
              Do you realize that being an American is like winning the biggest jackpot ever??

              http://www.midwestaudioclub.com/spot...owell-simpson/
              http://s413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

                Wolf...I have to come clean....for my own conscience...for the good of the competition...and because it's the honorable thing to do. The last thing I want to do is cause controversy at such an honorable and friendly event.

                My build cost for drivers and crossover parts was 136.72. The Peerless HDS 832873 were a PE buyout and I used the single item price of 28.67 in my total. Just after the super budget class started, I found out that I should have used the retail price in my total build cost. At this point, I don't know what the retail price is/was. Madisound is out of stock, so no prices are listed. I am guessing they were in the $45 range. That puts me just shy of $170 and out of the Super Budget class. The written rules don't cover the retail price stipulation and I didn't know about it until 10 minutes before my entry was to be judged. If there had been actual prizes on the line, I would have disqualified myself immediately. Looking back, I probably should have anyway, but at that point I was actually quite nervous about how my entry would sound and not thinking with a level head.

                I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone and hope I might still be welcome to participate next year.

                Tom S
                Co-conspirator in the development of the "CR Gnarly Fidelity Reduction Unit" - Registered Trademark, Patent Pending.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

                  I too would like to thank all who attended and most of all Maynard and Doug for the work they did with the event and the music. This is a great event that I make sure is priority for me one weekend a year. Thanks to all who attended and drove many miles to get here as well as the many great designs that presented the possibilities of component and design to get the creative juices flowing for the rest of us.

                  There were many very impressive speakers this year and I won't pretend to have detailed notes on all of them. A few that stood out for me are detailed below.

                  In the budget category, I'd like to express the great joy that Curt found it necessary to add a tweeter to his transient perfect Mavericks which knocked him into the midrange class... :D This left things very tight in my opinion in the budget class between the Vijons (by Wolf), the Copper Project (by Marty) and the Cryolites (design by LouC) that I brought. It was truly a matter of preference. The Vijons were very nice up top with great imaging and a very well integrated two-way. As a small 2-way, the lacked some of the bass. The Copper Project was very impressive with an excellent balanced presentation including great bass out of that TangBand driver. I did like the bass of the copper project potentially even better than the Cryolites RS180 design although you will pay more for that TB than you will the RS. The Max by Wolf looked (sounded) to have a lot of potential. Maybe it was my location, but the bass didn't seem to match my expectations. The 'Ferrari'-inspired ports looked to be complex to tune and may have had an impact. They had good upper mid for a 8" driver however and sounded very nice. I also appreciated the Fountek 2-way design.

                  The unlimited saw little competition, but provided an excellent speaker. As usual with Dan, the Basslines had both visual and audio presentation that are hard to match. I was really impressed with the Lambda driver and really liked the bass quality. Beyond that, the upper end was very well integrated and the system delivered a very nice result.

                  Midrange was tight. They were all very nice designs that I would put against about anything available commercially for many times the upper limit of the class. Paul's Matrix was excellent and really showed off the Neo set (3" and 8") with some of the best mid and upper sound of the show. I felt that as good as the Rs150s are, they were the weak part of the speaker - but a larger driver would preclude the really cool thin tower design. An excellent speaker all around. Paul's Marcatos were a very nice design although I must say that I have enjoyed a few of the past designs a bit better. That's the problem with being a top notch designer Paul - you raise the bar on our expectations. Suffice it to say that you will never really go wrong with any of Paul's designs and he is obviously the SME for TL work in the group and always so willing to help the rest of us with guidance. Shawn's arpaggios (SP?) really sounded nice. He indicated that they were not a 'finished' design but the Usher drivers sounded like they had a lot of potential to me. I would consider them strong for a future design and would love to hear the speaker again. Maynards Zirons were a great sounding speaker where the drivers simply blended and provided a very nice balanced sound. It's unfortunate that the tweeters were damaged in transit. This brings me to the tale of two speakers. Curt's Mavericks were very interesting. While many discussions accounted of different preferences between the two, from my seat the "A" (transient perfect) design was head and shoulders above the other. The bass was much better integrated and the overall life of the music was unsurpassed in the event. In the LR4 version, I was actually listening to a different speaker with the life seemingly sucked out of it. It would be interesting to have swapped seats with someone who liked "B" and auditioned again. Great job guys and all listed are designs that most of us would only aspire to be capable of.

                  There were many very nice designs that are not mentioned. I think everyone should be proud of the designs presented on Saturday.

                  Thanks to Jim and Doug for the posted pics of the event. The one thing I would ask is that everyone review and comment on each identifying the builder and name for reference by all. Doug's pics are here and Jim's are here.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

                    is anyone else supprised that there were no tritrix or recession busters? i kinda wish i would have brought my rb ported. to see if they would hold there own. maynards veneered speakers looked just fantastic. they make me want to try.
                    " To me, the soundstage presentation is more about phase and distortion and less about size. However, when you talk about bass extension, there's no replacement for displacement". Tyger23. 4.2015

                    Quote Originally Posted by hongrn. Oct 2014
                    Do you realize that being an American is like winning the biggest jackpot ever??

                    http://www.midwestaudioclub.com/spot...owell-simpson/
                    http://s413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

                      Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                      is anyone else supprised that there were no tritrix or recession busters? i kinda wish i would have brought my rb ported. to see if they would hold there own. maynards veneered speakers looked just fantastic. they make me want to try.
                      We have had the Tritrix at the Iowa event in past years however I too was surprised that none showed up with the recent spike in interest with the kit being offered...

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

                        Originally posted by tom_s View Post
                        ...I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone and hope I might still be welcome to participate next year.

                        Tom S
                        Don't worry about it, Tom - as far as I'm concerned, no harm was done. I sure didn't come to Iowa DIY to get political, and I didn't come to be competitive, either. I was there to get comments on my design, but all things considered, Iowa DIY seemed to me to be a lot less competitive than DIY Dayton. I sure didn't feel like I got burned or anything, and your HDS project sure put out some nice sound in that room, so if you end up being highest-rated in the budget class, as far as I'm concerned, you earned it.

                        -----------------------------
                        Show Notes Follow:

                        For a first DIY Iowa, I really had a great time, and I enjoyed the less formal atmosphere when compared to a highly-structured competition like Dayton. DIY Dayton had better prizes, but I feel like I learned more about my own project and others' at Iowa. The opportunity to hang out and talk audio with so many other forum members and see so many excellent projects was a great encouragement for me.

                        My best-sound-in-show award goes to Curt C's Maverick "A" (the quasi-transient-perfect bass/mid XO alignment...absolutely epic), with second going to Paul K's Marcato (my word for them would be 'lucid'), and third going to Dan's Basslines (which were second among the three in bass quality, and first in bass quantity, but didn't hold me spellbound the way Curt's and Paul's did. I think a tradeoff in midrange quality was made for some extra efficiency in using the pro-sound mid.) The Mavericks were even more impressive when considering that the tweeter was the inexpensive rear-mount Dayton ND20, and the Tang Band honeycomb flat-diaphragm mid was the talk of the show floor afterward. I'm curious to know what loading was used for the mid as well.

                        My "Most Interesting" pick was probably Wolf's Vijon, followed by Scott Selene's three-way towers using the B+G Neo3 and Neo8. The best word to describe Scott's towers was 'immediate', and driver integration was seamless from top to bottom. The only ding against Scott's towers was that they ran out of 'oomph' in the bass on bass-heavy tracks in the big room, causing audible distortion. If the design had incorporated four bass drivers instead of two, it might have been another story, but in most listening rooms I'm sure the two bass drivers quite adequate, and the bass depth was impressive for such small drivers. The Vijon delivered an extremely smooth and cohesive sound, but I felt too much was demanded from them in such a large room without a separate woofer module to pick up the low end, so I think they were actually a bit distressed-sounding. They held up well sonically under the duress, however. Third most interesting would have been Wolf's MAX 8" two-ways, though the tweeter did need some work - it lacked warmth.

                        As for my own project, I felt the Stones held up well to the stress of playing at the level of the previous contender, Matt's "Shenanigans" (his piezo horn could have sounded better with a few more components). Doug offered to lower the level, but I decided to take the risk, and the Stones didn't let me down as far as output was concerned. There were a couple passages where driver excursion got out of hand and the intermodulation distortion became noticeable, but aside from their very narrow sweet spot, I think they performed admirably, and I got some nice comments. I feel Dirk's design could have performed better if he hadn't plugged the vent, but with the vent plugged, the CSS WR125S widebanders were just outmatched by the room, despite their longer linear excursion than the Stones' Tang Band W4-1052, and bass distortion was the result.

                        So, that's my non-exhaustive wrap-up of Iowa DIY 2009. If Wolf goes to Iowa next year, I'll go, but I may hang around the InDIYana and Dayton DIY shows otherwise. Mark my words, though -- I will be back. (Muahahahah.) Special thanks to Wolf for driving the entire way, and thanks to the Wolfette for being so tolerant of her husband's hobby, and for the hospitality during my brief stay after arriving back in Indiana.
                        Last edited by Taterworks; 10-20-2009, 02:07 PM.
                        Best Regards,

                        Rory Buszka

                        Taterworks Audio

                        "The work of the individual still remains the spark which moves mankind ahead, even more than teamwork." - Igor I. Sikorsky

                        If it works, but you don't know why it works, then you haven't done any engineering.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

                          Originally posted by tom_s View Post
                          I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone and hope I might still be welcome to participate next year.

                          Tom S
                          As a fellow competitor in the SB class, I don't find myself caring much one way or the other. After hearing Rory's Stones on Friday night I figured I was already licked. :D

                          I think that you need to atone by sharing your XO.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

                            Originally posted by Dirk View Post
                            As a fellow competitor in the SB class, I don't find myself caring much one way or the other. After hearing Rory's Stones on Friday night I figured I was already licked. :D

                            I think that you need to atone by sharing your XO.
                            +1

                            I, too, shall return.
                            Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with Windows.

                            We are passionate about great sound at whatever level we can afford, so don't let the audio atheists reduce the experience to a set of numbers and squiggly lines. - jbruner

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

                              Originally posted by Taterworks View Post
                              I feel Dirk's design could have performed better if he hadn't plugged the vent, but with the vent plugged, the CSS WR125S widebanders were just outmatched by the room, despite their longer linear excursion than the Stones' Tang Band W4-1052, and bass distortion was the result.
                              My thoughts as well. However, the attempts at venting were an unmitigated failure. Combine the Qts of 1.0 and Fs of 95hz with the fact that I'm NOT Wolf and it just wasn't going to work for me. I tried everything, including various amounts of stuffing in the port. Cest la vie. I wanted to see what the driver could do. At home here I'll be using it with a sub, so if that's what lost me the day, I'm content.

                              Already planning for next year. Heh.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: DIYowa 2009 is in the books

                                Originally posted by Dirk View Post
                                ...I think that you need to atone by sharing your XO.
                                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=213020

                                Oh - I just remembered a question I had... In the case of speakers which are designed not to be more than a couple feet away from the back wall, I wonder how they could be properly auditioned at an event like this?

                                I guess they could only be heard at smaller events like InDIYana, and Dayton - would have to get pre-approved to not place them on the tape marks on the floor that they had at Dayton, I guess?
                                "...this is not a subwoofer" - Jeff Bagby ;)

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