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Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

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  • #31
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by Dirk View Post
    I implied nothing of the sort. You were the one that added the word "only". But thanks for taking me down a notch, Punk.

    One doesn't pair them with high end woofers just as one doesn't pair the RS28's with Dayton Classics. The RS28's are twice as expensive as the Silkie and they fill totally different performance (and cost) segments. Silkie sales are not going to be cannibalized unless the builders opt to move up to the next price bracket for their entire project.

    Vifa makes the DQ25 and the XT25. Despite the superior XT25 being out there, the DQ25 probably moves a lot more units.
    Ok, ok, thanksorryou're welcome.

    My point is, I'd never use the fabric RS with an RS (or any) aluminum-coned mid or woofer, especially when there's a great aluminum RS tweeter.

    What are you supposed to use this tweeter with, besides the RS woofers, without going non-Dayton? :eek:

    This new tweet is interesting, but I think an Al unit for the ND line is a bigger fish to fry.
    18hz is scary.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

      Originally posted by jkim View Post
      Nice addition to the RS series. Must be another low-cost, high-end tweeter. If the motor structure is exactly the same as the RS28A (highly likely), it should be an upgrade from the Usher 9950 (at least technically), and the low-end distortion performance should be identical (or very similar) to that of RS28A-4 Zaph tested.
      Both Qe and Qm are different - both increase (Qm: A=1.5, F=2.43; Qe: A=0.94, M=1.06), so I suspect that there are some other changes going on. Also Fs is slightly lower... The plot thickens!

      -Charlie
      Charlie's Audio Pages: http://audio.claub.net

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      • #33
        Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

        Originally posted by mzisserson View Post
        Jeff,
        A quickie for you: Why rear-mount the woofer? Better alignment for acoustic centers? Also, any issue with the slight horn created by the cabinet?

        I liked the look of the Harbeth P3ES, so I emulated it. As for the acoustic centers - the woofer is offset from the tweeter pretty far this way, but the crossover brings them back into near perfect phase alignment anyway. It's not hard to do. There's no real horn loading of the woofer to deal with.
        Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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        • #34
          Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

          Originally posted by romanbednarek View Post
          Also, I think that it is pretty absurd that people would consider the lack of off-axis measurements for a tweeter of known diameter and known dome material to be an issue that would prevent them from buying it. I'll admit that measurements are more accurate, but I think that you'll find a general trend in off axis performance with other tweeters in the same category (size and material)... and the characteristics of fabric domes relative to metal domes do result in trends with each type although I suspect that metal domes are a bit more varied due to the use of a phase shield in most cases. I guess that my point is that assuming that you have chosen to use a tweeter with a fabric dome, the only way that you're guaranteed to get better dispersion is to use a smaller dome and then you'll almost always have to deal with a higher crossover point limitation.
          Totally agreed. This tweeter's off-axis performance should be very close to that of a similarly sized soft dome tweeter.

          I really think that this tweeter will be very versatile. Also, there will probably be pros/cons relative to the metal version, some of which are based on preference (for example if you compare the distoriton profiles of the Seas 27TDFC to the 27TBFC/G which is the same exact tweeter but with a different faceplate/dome [I know because I converted a pair of TDFC's to TBFC/G's] you might notice that the metal version has lower distortion in general but many people prefer the qualities of the fabric version, some of which have to do with the performance in the top octave).
          The reason why metal versus soft dome versions of a tweeter with the same motor have different linear/nonlinear distortion profiles is mainly due to their different dome resonance patterns. A metal dome version's breakup usually occurs as a noticealbe peak out of the audible range, but a soft dome's occurs as a mild response lift in the top octave. Soft dome's a bit higher HD above 3 kHz is due to this different breakup location, but still not much of an issue since we are not very sensitive to signals in the top octave. If the motor is the same, distortion profile below 3 kHz should be very similar to each other. I recently did an HD sweep of the Seas 27TDFC, whose profile below 3 kHz turned out to be exactly same as Zaph's 27TBFc/G HD sweep. His 27TDFC measurement was done quite a while ago, and I guess there has been a little inconsistency even with these Seas tweeters.

          jAy

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          • #35
            Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

            Originally posted by Dirk View Post
            I so want a pair of those in my office.

            I sure wish Prometheus would share the fire with the rest of us stuck in the dark... ;)
            I'll tell you what, Dirk. If you are really interested in building the speaker. Let me know and I'll share the design with you.

            Jeff
            Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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            • #36
              Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

              Originally posted by PunkSweeper View Post
              Ok, ok, thanksorryou're welcome.

              My point is, I'd never use the fabric RS with an RS (or any) aluminum-coned mid or woofer, especially when there's a great aluminum RS tweeter.
              Why not? There's nothing heinous about using a fabric dome with metal woofers. Otherwise, what would you use with this?

              http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=296-606

              :rolleyes:

              This is just my opinion, but metal drivers get a "metal sound" when their breakup nodes are too prevalent. In the hands of a good XO designer, cone material isn't something you can hear. The only drivers I've ever heard with a totally distinctive sound are planars, but they're a whole different kettle of fish.
              nothing can stop me now

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              • #37
                Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

                Originally posted by Dirk View Post
                Why not? There's nothing heinous about using a fabric dome with metal woofers. Otherwise, what would you use with this?

                http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=296-606

                :rolleyes:

                This is just my opinion, but metal drivers get a "metal sound" when their breakup nodes are too prevalent. In the hands of a good XO designer, cone material isn't something you can hear. The only drivers I've ever heard with a totally distinctive sound are planars, but they're a whole different kettle of fish.
                I'm partial to planars. They are, in fact, what I'd pair to such a woofer.

                It's also where my belief in uniformity in driver material starts to become irratonal...:rolleyes:
                18hz is scary.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

                  Why wouldn't they pair well with the aluminum cone drivers? With an FS of 530 and the possibility to cross low I would think they would pair quite well with the aluminum cone drivers. I guess someone other than myself (I have no idea on how to design a good crossover) just needs to make a purchase and try them out.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

                    Originally posted by rickyj View Post
                    Why wouldn't they pair well with the aluminum cone drivers? With an FS of 530 and the possibility to cross low I would think they would pair quite well with the aluminum cone drivers. I guess someone other than myself (I have no idea on how to design a good crossover) just needs to make a purchase and try them out.
                    No reason whatsoever. Jeff B did the Dreydel using metal cone mid woofer and fabric dome tweeter.

                    And as anyone whose heard the Dreydel will attest, in this case, metal and fabric are a match made in audio heaven.
                    R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                    Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                    95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                    "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

                      Originally posted by critofur View Post
                      I am assuming, and please someone chime in, that the response plot for the RS28F is for 1W (2V) and the RS28A is for 2W (2.83V) input.

                      Thoughts?
                      R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                      Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                      95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                      "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

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                      • #41
                        Finally arrived....

                        Originally posted by critofur View Post
                        I wondered how long it would take....

                        Looks very feasible for a *lot* of projects.
                        You prolly can't go wrong with either unit.
                        Later,
                        Wolf
                        "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                        "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                        "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                        "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                        *InDIYana event website*

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                        • #42
                          Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

                          No reason whatsoever. Jeff B did the Dreydel using metal cone mid woofer and fabric dome tweeter.

                          And as anyone whose heard the Dreydel will attest, in this case, metal and fabric are a match made in audio heaven.
                          Well, I don't see why perfect uniformity in cone material could be totally mute, and I'd still like to see some RS drivers with less breakup-prone cone materials such as Titanic-style Kevlar impregnated paper, Polypropylene, or even Woven Carbon Fiber.
                          18hz is scary.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

                            Originally posted by shawn_a View Post
                            Very interesting indeed. Nothing like an Usher 9950 or 9930 dome. I might have to cabbage onto a pair of these to play around with. Dig through the sofa time I guess.

                            shawn
                            To me it looks like a challenger to the SS D2905/9700, the copper-clad soft dome that also has a rising top end. Likely rising due to the lowered inductance profile. They use the same soft dome, 9300/9500/9700 I think. That makes it somewhat of a clone of the 9700, since the Usher was something of a clone of the SS line.

                            The droop is gone purely due to the soft dome, another plus in my book. Sure looks like a great driver at a great price to me if the consistency is there. That's the hard part of soft domes (pardon the pun).

                            dlr
                            WinPCD - Windows .NET Passive Crossover Designer

                            Dave's Speaker Pages

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                            • #44
                              Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

                              Originally posted by PunkSweeper View Post
                              Well, I don't see why perfect uniformity in cone material could be totally mute, and I'd still like to see some RS drivers with less breakup-prone cone materials such as Titanic-style Kevlar impregnated paper, Polypropylene, or even Woven Carbon Fiber.
                              Then where is the silk cone to match the silk tweeter? :rolleyes:
                              R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                              Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                              95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                              "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

                                Then where is the silk cone to match the silk tweeter? :rolleyes:
                                Predictable response much? :p
                                18hz is scary.

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