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Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

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  • jkim
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by romanbednarek View Post
    Also, I think that it is pretty absurd that people would consider the lack of off-axis measurements for a tweeter of known diameter and known dome material to be an issue that would prevent them from buying it. I'll admit that measurements are more accurate, but I think that you'll find a general trend in off axis performance with other tweeters in the same category (size and material)... and the characteristics of fabric domes relative to metal domes do result in trends with each type although I suspect that metal domes are a bit more varied due to the use of a phase shield in most cases. I guess that my point is that assuming that you have chosen to use a tweeter with a fabric dome, the only way that you're guaranteed to get better dispersion is to use a smaller dome and then you'll almost always have to deal with a higher crossover point limitation.
    Totally agreed. This tweeter's off-axis performance should be very close to that of a similarly sized soft dome tweeter.

    I really think that this tweeter will be very versatile. Also, there will probably be pros/cons relative to the metal version, some of which are based on preference (for example if you compare the distoriton profiles of the Seas 27TDFC to the 27TBFC/G which is the same exact tweeter but with a different faceplate/dome [I know because I converted a pair of TDFC's to TBFC/G's] you might notice that the metal version has lower distortion in general but many people prefer the qualities of the fabric version, some of which have to do with the performance in the top octave).
    The reason why metal versus soft dome versions of a tweeter with the same motor have different linear/nonlinear distortion profiles is mainly due to their different dome resonance patterns. A metal dome version's breakup usually occurs as a noticealbe peak out of the audible range, but a soft dome's occurs as a mild response lift in the top octave. Soft dome's a bit higher HD above 3 kHz is due to this different breakup location, but still not much of an issue since we are not very sensitive to signals in the top octave. If the motor is the same, distortion profile below 3 kHz should be very similar to each other. I recently did an HD sweep of the Seas 27TDFC, whose profile below 3 kHz turned out to be exactly same as Zaph's 27TBFc/G HD sweep. His 27TDFC measurement was done quite a while ago, and I guess there has been a little inconsistency even with these Seas tweeters.

    jAy

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeff B.
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by mzisserson View Post
    Jeff,
    A quickie for you: Why rear-mount the woofer? Better alignment for acoustic centers? Also, any issue with the slight horn created by the cabinet?

    I liked the look of the Harbeth P3ES, so I emulated it. As for the acoustic centers - the woofer is offset from the tweeter pretty far this way, but the crossover brings them back into near perfect phase alignment anyway. It's not hard to do. There's no real horn loading of the woofer to deal with.

    Leave a comment:


  • charlielaub
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by jkim View Post
    Nice addition to the RS series. Must be another low-cost, high-end tweeter. If the motor structure is exactly the same as the RS28A (highly likely), it should be an upgrade from the Usher 9950 (at least technically), and the low-end distortion performance should be identical (or very similar) to that of RS28A-4 Zaph tested.
    Both Qe and Qm are different - both increase (Qm: A=1.5, F=2.43; Qe: A=0.94, M=1.06), so I suspect that there are some other changes going on. Also Fs is slightly lower... The plot thickens!

    -Charlie

    Leave a comment:


  • PunkSweeper
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by Dirk View Post
    I implied nothing of the sort. You were the one that added the word "only". But thanks for taking me down a notch, Punk.

    One doesn't pair them with high end woofers just as one doesn't pair the RS28's with Dayton Classics. The RS28's are twice as expensive as the Silkie and they fill totally different performance (and cost) segments. Silkie sales are not going to be cannibalized unless the builders opt to move up to the next price bracket for their entire project.

    Vifa makes the DQ25 and the XT25. Despite the superior XT25 being out there, the DQ25 probably moves a lot more units.
    Ok, ok, thanksorryou're welcome.

    My point is, I'd never use the fabric RS with an RS (or any) aluminum-coned mid or woofer, especially when there's a great aluminum RS tweeter.

    What are you supposed to use this tweeter with, besides the RS woofers, without going non-Dayton? :eek:

    This new tweet is interesting, but I think an Al unit for the ND line is a bigger fish to fry.

    Leave a comment:


  • mzisserson
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
    You heard it in my little speakers in Auburn, this past spring.

    Jeff,
    A quickie for you: Why rear-mount the woofer? Better alignment for acoustic centers? Also, any issue with the slight horn created by the cabinet?

    Leave a comment:


  • romanbednarek
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Although I've grown to like the metal dome RS28 when I converted my Daedalus (all RS driver) design to the Dionysus (XG18 dipole mid), I think that the fabric version is a great option for many reasons and should compete with many established favorites in that size/material category (Seas 27TDFC, Usher models, Scan Speak models, North Creek, and many others).

    I've found the RS28 (metal) to be a very clean sounding driver but the top end droop did bother me but since it was used in a lower sensitivity design I was able to "lift" it with the crossover... this may be a moot point for the lower sensitivity issues with the fabric tweeter due to its rising top end.

    Also, I think that it is pretty absurd that people would consider the lack of off-axis measurements for a tweeter of known diameter and known dome material to be an issue that would prevent them from buying it. I'll admit that measurements are more accurate, but I think that you'll find a general trend in off axis performance with other tweeters in the same category (size and material)... and the characteristics of fabric domes relative to metal domes do result in trends with each type although I suspect that metal domes are a bit more varied due to the use of a phase shield in most cases. I guess that my point is that assuming that you have chosen to use a tweeter with a fabric dome, the only way that you're guaranteed to get better dispersion is to use a smaller dome and then you'll almost always have to deal with a higher crossover point limitation.


    I really think that this tweeter will be very versatile. Also, there will probably be pros/cons relative to the metal version, some of which are based on preference (for example if you compare the distoriton profiles of the Seas 27TDFC to the 27TBFC/G which is the same exact tweeter but with a different faceplate/dome [I know because I converted a pair of TDFC's to TBFC/G's] you might notice that the metal version has lower distortion in general but many people prefer the qualities of the fabric version, some of which have to do with the performance in the top octave).

    Anyway, it is good to see a new RS driver introduced to the lineup and one thing that I can say about the measurements that are provided is that they are probably a good representation of the true performance of that driver (when compared to some of the data provided from other competitors). I just hope that this eventually leads to some more RS drivers that use non-metal (and non-poly, not that they exist now) cones which may be able to fill the void of the Peerless HDS Exclusive line which seems to be fluctuating in terms of availability.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dirk
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
    You heard it in my little speakers in Auburn, this past spring.
    I so want a pair of those in my office.

    I sure wish Prometheus would share the fire with the rest of us stuck in the dark... ;)

    Leave a comment:


  • Dirk
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by PunkSweeper View Post
    Of course not, don't be silly. Are you saying people only pair the Silkie to $10 paper cone 6.5" buyout woofers?
    I implied nothing of the sort. You were the one that added the word "only". But thanks for taking me down a notch, Punk.

    One doesn't pair them with high end woofers just as one doesn't pair the RS28's with Dayton Classics. The RS28's are twice as expensive as the Silkie and they fill totally different performance (and cost) segments. Silkie sales are not going to be cannibalized unless the builders opt to move up to the next price bracket for their entire project.

    Vifa makes the DQ25 and the XT25. Despite the superior XT25 being out there, the DQ25 probably moves a lot more units.

    Leave a comment:


  • jkim
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Nice addition to the RS series. Must be another low-cost, high-end tweeter. If the motor structure is exactly the same as the RS28A (highly likely), it should be an upgrade from the Usher 9950 (at least technically), and the low-end distortion performance should be identical (or very similar) to that of RS28A-4 Zaph tested.

    Leave a comment:


  • mzisserson
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by gc1 View Post
    I agree... BxL can be part of telling one what type of "dynamics" a driver has... Mms (and Fs) can tell one what type of "tone" to expect... and Xmax also dynamics.
    Oh please elaborate on this...


    The dome looks like it may have stole a bit of its shape from the Audax To25, which is a tweeter I am very find of.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeff B.
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by critofur View Post
    It seems like everytime I've seen people use the RS28A, they LOVE it. But, I don't see it used that much?

    Less kid-proof how?

    You heard it in my little speakers in Auburn, this past spring.

    Leave a comment:


  • jclin4
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by critofur View Post
    It seems like everytime I've seen people use the RS28A, they LOVE it. But, I don't see it used that much?

    Less kid-proof how?
    I built the Modula MT's with the RS28A's. That with the Modula MTM are two of the most widely built published designs. Roman has a version of his popular Microbes using the same tweeter. I'm sure there are many others out there.

    Regarding the kid-proof comment, I retracted that in post #20.

    Leave a comment:


  • critofur
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by jclin4 View Post
    If you like (and can hear) extra sparkle, this might be an improvement. Otherwise the RS28A sounds pretty good, even with its 15k dip, does it not?

    Also, a minor observation: the RS28F will be less kid-proof.
    It seems like everytime I've seen people use the RS28A, they LOVE it. But, I don't see it used that much?

    Less kid-proof how?

    Leave a comment:


  • PunkSweeper
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by Dirk View Post
    I'm Dirk, and I am way cooler than you.
    Of course not, don't be silly. Are you saying people only pair the Silkie to $10 paper cone 6.5" buyout woofers?

    Leave a comment:


  • jclin4
    replied
    Re: Hmm, Dayton RS28F - F??? What have we here?

    Originally posted by Dirk View Post
    Why?

    "Cast aluminum faceplate with protective mesh grill"
    oops, missed that. The curve on the mesh grille threw me off, I thought it was the silk dome itself. Thanks for clearing that up.

    Leave a comment:

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