Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

[sbrtoy]

While many will even question why I read it, I was perusing the latest issue of Stereophile and was astounded by an advertisement for Acoustic Technologies speakers. They appear to use the Tang Band W3-1335SB run full-range with no crossover in a transmission line cabinet. The best part? Retail is $2650!

So $80 in drivers (less at OEM prices), $50 in silver wire internally, and a decent looking cabinet sells for $2650? Driver doesn't even get flush mounted? No notch filter to tame the nasties in response? These are right up there with the infamous Von Schweikert Unifields in the low-value-for-the-dollar ranking...

From my own experiences I have learned people buy marketing as much as performance. I don't wish ill-will to companies trying to earn a buck, but at what point do these folks look in the mirror and realize what a load of scat they are flinging?

Anyhow I must say as someone who has seen and heard most all of what is out there in audio I am regularly impressed by the expertise and ingenuity from the folks on here and on diyaudio.com, have a great holiday everybody and keep the creativity flowing!

....end of rant

[Taterworks]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...



Rant on.

Do you know how many prototypes were built? Do you know how much those enclosures cost to build/finish?

I see this quite a bit, and it bothers me more now than it used to - a new hobbyist shows up and says "Hey, this DIY stuff is great! I can build the same stuff they sell in the stores for real cheap! What's up with high-end audio, anyway?" What's up is that the design process often requires several iterations of the prototype, and veneer and decent finishing compounds don't come cheap. A well-built enclosure can cost north of $500 built and finished if it's large or uses special materials or techniques like veneer or automotive finishes. You are trusting the designer of the speakers to make the right tradeoffs in designing the speaker for your application, and you're trusting their ears to get the sound 'right'. You're also paying for the sweat equity of everyone who worked on the speaker (American or other non-Chinese non-sweatshop labor is expensive), and for the ability to go to the store and buy their speaker without having to figure out all of the above on your own. Then there's almost assuredly a bit of a premium tacked on to create some exclusivity around the product as well, and it's probably here that high-end audio shoots itself in the foot with younger customers. (Role Audio is a good example of how not to do this. They have some pretty cool stuff that I'd buy.)

If you value your sweat equity less than someone else's, then it makes sense for you to build your own stuff, but this hobby also requires a sizeable investment in tools and testing equipment, as well as the time to learn to use it all. If you make a serious attempt at doing DIY 'right', you'll find it's not just a matter of knocking six panels together and putting a speaker in one of them. If you decided to forget all that and just build proven designs, you're still taking advantage of someone else with a higher level of interest making the investment in measurement gear that they probably will not recoup unless they specialize in advanced projects.

Rant off.

[sbrtoy]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Tater, while I respect your comments, as someone who has tried to market a speaker commercially I feel I have plenty of experience to draw from. The plain fact of audio is people buy hype and status 90% of the time. The other 10% want something high value and well engineered.

Not sure how many prototypes a speaker with no crossover could possibly need....and you can get very nice cabinets made here in the US for less than $500 apiece if you are willing to build a decent sized run.

[Taterworks]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Which commercial speaker did you design/market? Now I'm intrigued. Was the venture successful?

With a single driver, the cabinet has an even greater effect on the speaker's tonality by its acoustics through the midband and upper frequencies as well. Now you no longer have only midbass, but upper-midrange and treble energy being released into the enclosure, and those reflections need to be properly controlled. How many prototypes could they -possibly- need? Enough to get it right, assuming that they did in fact get it right after all that iteration... :rolleyes:

I've only read complimentary reviews of the VS Unifield 3, if that's the Unifield model you're talking about. Yeah, all the drivers are off-the-shelf, but it's the enclosure design and driver integration that justify the expense from an engineering perspective, and those enclosures can't be cheap to build.

[Operandi]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Tater, while I respect your comments, as someone who has tried to market a speaker commercially I feel I have plenty of experience to draw from. The plain fact of audio is people buy hype and status 90% of the time. The other 10% want something high value and well engineered.

I generally agree. A friend of mine who works in the industry decided to go with the Pro side after checking out some of the bigger consumer outfits simply because the pro field had a much higher emphasis on the engineering when it came down the design of the speaker.

[dbe]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Rant on.

Do you know how many prototypes were built? Do you know how much those enclosures cost to build/finish?

I see this quite a bit, and it bothers me more now than it used to - a new hobbyist shows up and says "Hey, this DIY stuff is great! I can build the same stuff they sell in the stores for real cheap! What's up with high-end audio, anyway?" What's up is that the design process often requires several iterations of the prototype, and veneer and decent finishing compounds don't come cheap. A well-built enclosure can cost north of $500 built and finished if it's large or uses special materials or techniques like veneer or automotive finishes. You are trusting the designer of the speakers to make the right tradeoffs in designing the speaker for your application, and you're trusting their ears to get the sound 'right'. You're also paying for the sweat equity of everyone who worked on the speaker (American or other non-Chinese non-sweatshop labor is expensive), and for the ability to go to the store and buy their speaker without having to figure out all of the above on your own. Then there's almost assuredly a bit of a premium tacked on to create some exclusivity around the product as well, and it's probably here that high-end audio shoots itself in the foot with younger customers. (Role Audio is a good example of how not to do this. They have some pretty cool stuff that I'd buy.)

If you value your sweat equity less than someone else's, then it makes sense for you to build your own stuff, but this hobby also requires a sizeable investment in tools and testing equipment, as well as the time to learn to use it all. If you make a serious attempt at doing DIY 'right', you'll find it's not just a matter of knocking six panels together and putting a speaker in one of them. If you decided to forget all that and just build proven designs, you're still taking advantage of someone else with a higher level of interest making the investment in measurement gear that they probably will not recoup unless they specialize in advanced projects.

Rant off.

As an industry guy, I take a middle of the road approach to posts like this. Having been to shows over the years and seeing what is marketed is a trip. Seeing $100,000.00 speakers advertised as "The Best Loudspeakers in the World, PERIOD!" is a bit arrogant at best and listening to them fall flat on their faces at a show is comical. Then again, I have been taken to task for some of my products, all by people that have never heard them, so I feel your pain, Tater. Such is the dubious joy of the audio industry. Many people see only the outside of the driver in a box and don't take into account that there are people out there that can't glue two pieces of wood together, like what they like and will pay for whatever it is that they want.

I would say that 80% of the "high end audio guys" here in Albuquerque are in it for reasons much different than the enjoyment of the reproduction of music. I would be so bold as to say that 50% of the people here are in this addiction that we call audio because of the enjoyment that they (we) get out of building something that looks good and makes reasonable music. Some people are here because they are scientific types that want to build a perfect speaker. Some are here for budgetary reasons. Why we do what we do is really irrelevant. We just do what we do and there is no reason to diss anyone for wanting to build a 50 driver line array that is flat from DC to light and cost a $1,000,000.00 to sell to someone that will buy it. We are all different and have different motiviations in doing what we do.

I remember some years ago when I was building some studio monitors for a studio in Dallas. They wanted Focal tweeters like were in Wilson WATT/Puppies and I set out to get some. I was quite suprised to find out that they REALLY were very special units that were not available to the public. So it wasn't ALL marketing BS about custom drive units. Could be that the drivers in the speakers in question are VERY special, too. Who knows? Who really cares? I don't because I'm not into that kind of speaker.

The products that I am selling now are ugly black boxes that cost quite a bit of money. They aren't for everyone, As a matter of fact, they aren't for many. They do what they do very well and I have gotten good reviews on them. None of this has any bearing upon what I have to say and can or cannot bring to the DIY table. All of that is as useless as talking about the weather. We can't do anything about it and all of the complaints are counterproductive to an open forum.

I'm not taking any sides in this thread. Sides are dumb and don't do anyone any good. People will think what we think and then vent about it. I've done it many times. I just hope that this doesn't degrade into the prototypical "US vs THEM" kind of thing. Who the heck is "us and them" anyhoo?

My $.02.

Dave

[DS-21]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Do you know how many prototypes were built? Do you know how much those enclosures cost to build/finish?

Oh come on. I assume this is the speaker we're talking about. We're talking about a cheap driver in a box, with no filter engineering. There's no serious meaningful industrial design to add value there, either. It's just a damn column. And the acoustic design of the cabinets is quite poor, almost embarrassingly so: look at all those sharp, diffraction-rich edges! (For 2.6k+ they could've at least done decent-radius roundovers.)

As for the bass alignment, whoo freakin' hoo. A transmission line.

Yes, there are things at that price point that an entry-level hobbyist can't do, that will provide superior performance to anything an entry-level hobbyist could do. (See, e.g. GedLee Nathan.) But to defend expensive speakers using a single cheap driver in a crappily-designed cabinet with no filtering as something even above the capabilities of even the most bone-headed hobbyist or remotely justified as a value proposition is just silly.

[Taterworks]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

From the RMAF 2009 StereoTimes link in dbe's signature:

"As at CES, I enjoyed the Acoustic Technologies speaker. This is a small footprint, single-driver floor stander. Retailing for just $2,450, and driven by a Pass F3 amp, the speaker has remarkable dispersion, such that it sounds good irrespective of where one is standing or sitting in the room. In my opinion, this speaker represents a fantastic product for those intrigued by single-driver speakers, those with a limited budget, or those interested in a “life style” speaker that offers the antithesis of the “head in a vice” sweet spot of many modern speakers."

Now the 'limited budget' thing makes me chuckle, but at least some reviewers are liking what they hear. I do remember either EnjoyTheMusic.com or Positive Feedback was less than enamored with the Acoustic Technology speakers for their price. But this may only be the most egregious case of somebody putting shiny drivers in a box and calling it 'high end'. Even at the low end of Wilson Audio's product line, the Duettes, when I had a chance to hear them at a nice stereo shop in Indianapolis, I was amazed at their performance, and the WATT/Puppy system was also incredible, so I believe it's possible to appreciate the level of engineering attention to detail that goes into a truly high-end product. If there are any pretenders out there, they won't survive long. Though it does seem there are usually new ones to take their place.

[maynardg]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

I was in Sound by Singer in NY a couple of weeks ago. Mostly wretched excess, but some pf the amps have remarkable industrial design, real eye candy. I suppose, if they sound much better than my $600 used, top of the line in 1976, Accuphase amp and I had $millions ready for retirement I might buy some.

Not the speakers though, well, maybe Wilson Sophia's. They sound and look fine.

[ligs]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

As hobbists we only count the cost of drivers, crossover parts, wood and all the raw materials which go into your speakers. How about hours of wood work, finishing, testing, and tweaking? I will say for a pair of speakers it can take a week if not a month from the beginning to end. 20 hours is probably mininum for a pair of small speakers. How much should you pay yourself if you want to make a profit? Maybe $600 and that is just the labor!

How about semi-kits like those sold by Dynakit and Heathkit. I feel they could be a commercial success and yet not overly priced!

[philiparcario]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Oh come on. I assume this is the speaker we're talking about. We're talking about a cheap driver in a box, with no filter engineering. There's no serious meaningful industrial design to add value there, either. It's just a damn column. And the acoustic design of the cabinets is quite poor, almost embarrassingly so: look at all those sharp, diffraction-rich edges! (For 2.6k+ they could've at least done decent-radius roundovers.)

As for the bass alignment, whoo freakin' hoo. A transmission line.

Yes, there are things at that price point that an entry-level hobbyist can't do, that will provide superior performance to anything an entry-level hobbyist could do. (See, e.g. GedLee Nathan.) But to defend expensive speakers using a single cheap driver in a crappily-designed cabinet with no filtering as something even above the capabilities of even the most bone-headed hobbyist or remotely justified as a value proposition is just silly.

I am so much in agreement with you. It is not that I hate speaker builders but for 2500 dollars there are so many better commercial speakers it is sad. I also think that these would sound fine with a female vocalist doing a solo piece but to think they could play a full band or pink floyds dark side of the moon is a Joke. I realize that if you were going to a headshrink in manhattan and he used them playing soft peacefull music during your therapy you would like them as a patient so there is a place for them. they are pretty. the gallo reference 3.1 costs 3200 it has a wild cool look and would destroy this speaker for sound quality.

http://www.roundsound.com/reference-3-speakers.htm

myself I build a lot of hi end active systems. but if you are looking to drop 2500 on eye candy speakers drop 3200 on the gallo eye candy
at least you will get some nice sound.



Reference 3.1 specs

Frequency Response: 34Hz - 35kHz +/- 3dB
Frequency Response
(active bass): 22Hz - 35kHz +/- 3dB
Impedance top terminal : 4 - 8 ohms
Impedance lower terminal: 4 ohms
Sensitivity: 88 dB/1 watt/1 meter
Power Handling: 350 watts RMS
Driver: Dual 4" carbon fiber midrange drivers
Custom 10" dual voice coil bass driver
CDT Tweeter: 300° dispersion 3kHz - 35kHz
Midrange Driver Material: Hyperbolic carbon fiber
Dimensions: 36.25" (H) x 8" (W) x 14" (D) with grill
35.5" (H) x 8" (W) x 14" (D) w/out grill
Add 2 to 2.25" for spikes and spike protectors
Weight: 47 lbs each
Connections: Gold plated brass binding posts for secure wire connection
Enclosure: Aluminum/Stainless Steel
Finishes: Black on black or black on stainless with black base (Cherry or Natural Maple bases available as optional upgrade)
Warranty: 1 year parts and labor (expanded to 5 years if product is registered within 60 days of purchase)
Close Window



manual link

http://www.roundsound.com/manuals/reference3-manual.pdf

[mgrabow]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

I agree that the R+D, Insurance, OSHA regulations, Staff, Rent, Trash removal, Heat, Gas, Marketing, a booth at CES and a whole bunch of other overhead costs make a $1000 worth of parts into a $6800 speaker.

However, the DIY'er can not get the time of day from an audiophile retailer, but having huge overhead gets you a pass on your nice looking piece of crap...

Case in point

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/roadtour10/roadtour10.html

There Reimer speakers (Now out of business) may look nice with their HiVi drivers, but take a look at the crossover and it is a jumbled mass of components glued to a scrap piece of plywood. At least the $11000 Xavian (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/xavian/360.html) has some craftsmanship. It better for that price...

I think most DIY'ers get aggravated when they see this with the lowest quality drivers available on the internet. Many of todays high end manufacturers, were once cabinet builders who bought their drivers from another source. Now they have migrated to their own drivers. Thiel and Usher are two examples of that...

[donparsons]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

I made these for my father last christmas. I figured I had $128 in parts, $0 to Wolf for R & D, and $3100 in labor to get them lookng how I wanted them. That doesn't figure tools, or renting space in my garage for the project.

If I had a distributor that would put them up to about $5k wholesale, and they would need to retail for $7500 at 25% off cuz no one pays retail. They sound very nice, but not quite that nice.

Owning a business and making a profit is not as easy as many might think. These guys are probably setting retail price in a way that they think will make them successful and also building a product that they think the market, which is not the DIYers of the world will want.

[MrkCrwly]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

What I find amazing is on the other end of the spectrum. The recession has produced some bargains.

[ligs]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

What bargains? I am look for one!