Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

[joekraska]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Perhaps this will grounds us all with a hefty dose of amused perspective:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/

--Joe.

[ryan24]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

love it!

[johnastockman]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Tater, while I respect your comments, as someone who has tried to market a speaker commercially I feel I have plenty of experience to draw from. The plain fact of audio is people buy hype and status 90% of the time. The other 10% want something high value and well engineered.

Not sure how many prototypes a speaker with no crossover could possibly need....and you can get very nice cabinets made here in the US for less than $500 apiece if you are willing to build a decent sized run.

Take it from someone who worked behind the counter at a Seattle-area high-end audio store. Not only 5-6 figure stuff, but we had nice affordable house-brand speakers that were made locally in Port Angeles. They continually knocked the wee outta more expensive recognized name brands, both during Sunday night listening sessions and in measurements. "Economy of scale" was mentioned and that is very true. With a large majority of comsumers, most are ill-informed and don't want to know. They're stuck on a brand name and/or appearance. When you take apart an expensive speaker (or even a mid-fi OEM) and show 'em what's inside and cabinet construction/materials, then they realize the folly of pay-more-to-get-better-SQ or I-want-this-particular-brand-name. Plus dealing with some companies as a retailer can be frustrating, especially the more popular ones. I get to hear the latest offerings at one of the few high-end emporiums left around here, Definitive Audio (and attending CES). Not impressed. I'm glad to get home to my DIY speakers. Now the Theil's, that's a speaker worth the money and sounds better than boutique offerings that are 10 times more. But any of the popular, recognized brands, I would not recommend any. I've seen way too much hype and not a matching build or sound quality. I still get them here at my house. If you never heard anything else but your choice of a favorite OEM, then you won't know the difference. I prove it to people just about every month here, when they're curious as to how their choice stacks up against a DIY design. Kinda like if folks find out that you're a doctor: "I have this pain, rash, etc"...same when people find out I build speakers: "I have these [insert brand name here] speakers, what do you think/how do they compare?" I say, bring 'em over and we'll see. You don't need a controlled, scientific listening test to hear the clarity, imaging and transparency differences, and no listening fatigue that's present with commercial stuff. Obviously, this doesn't apply to all companies, but it's a larger majority than most think.

John A.

[mzisserson]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

If someone buys a Blose product, and loves it... Thinks that nothing can compare to its pricetag, even if he/she has heard what else is out there and they are happy with it, is it really a rip off?

The collective DIY community is far more technically apt than Jane and Joe. Come on guys, we are geeks in their purest form, no matter how many beers, power tools, or gruff statements we hide behind. In that right, we understand the ins and outs far better. Some people just DO NOT want to take the time to build even a .25 ft3 bookshelf... why? Perhaps their time is worth $500/hr to them.

So who and what defines all of these "rip off's". If someone pioneers a niche, works it, regardless how cheap the product, and sells the hell out of it, good for them. It is still making people happy. Its the reason someone will pay $80K for a Jaguar with a 90 day warranty.

That is my $0.02... I seek out those who I can help see the light, otherwise I still go to my brothers and watch a movie now and again on his acoustimess whatever the $6k one is.

...........And for movies, it is not all that evil. Due in Extremely large part to the one thing that Bose does well, the electronics within that EQ the heck out of the room, and the system.

I saw a graph of a Bose system once Anheolic. The first thought that came to my head was "heck if you counted in Room gain from a corner loaded sub, and hung the sats from the wall, I bet acoustically the response would be pretty flat!"

Now, to make myself clear BOSE IS A RIP OFF. However I may not say this if they sold for 50% less... Regardless of the plastic enclosures and $0.05 drivers.

[dbe]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

I prove it to people just about every month here, when they're curious as to how their choice stacks up against a DIY design. Kinda like if folks find out that you're a doctor: "I have this pain, rash, etc"...same when people find out I build speakers: "I have these [insert brand name here] speakers, what do you think/how do they compare?" I say, bring 'em over and we'll see. You don't need a controlled, scientific listening test to hear the clarity, imaging and transparency differences, and no listening fatigue that's present with commercial stuff. Obviously, this doesn't apply to all companies, but it's a larger majority than most think.

John A.

Tell me!!! I made a lot of money back in the late '90's and early 2000' retrofitting B&W 800, 801 & 802 with crossovers that actually worked well. The old Matrix 801 with the electrolytics in the mid and mylar tweeter sections came alive when properly implemented. I think Paul Blakemore at Telarc is still using his.

I've done the same thing at my home with other people's speakers and my recently retired (to a friend's place) long time reference. Seen a lot of sad speaker owners leave checks here for replacements. They couldn't understand why I wouldn't take trade ins :eek:

Dave

[Erich H]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

DIY guys are never going to think speakers like this are a good deal because they know how much the parts cost.

Ever pay a guy to finish the drywall you hung up? $500 and he uses $70 worth of materials, barely breaks a sweat, barely kicks up any dust and works a few hours each day for a few days. Most people would have no problem paying that $500. But for the DIY home improvement guy, it's INSANE.

I run a small landscape business and can charge 1000's of dollars for installing $500 worth of materials. The client loves it, and loves my design, but I think people are crazy to spend that much money......"to dig holes and plant some shrubs".



The speakers in question are overpriced if you ask me. But some companies price their products really high to bring in the people that think expensive stuff will always be better (Bose, MosterCable, etc). This company may only have to sell 10 pair to clear $20,000. Company B that sells them for $500 needs to sell 300 pairs to make the same profit. It boils down to whether you want to work harder packaging up 300 pair, or being an incredible salesman to just 10 people.

[joekraska]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Ever pay a guy to finish the drywall you hung up?

You're right about this. I personally supervised (as g.c.) a $75K remodel of my own house, merely buying material, supplies, and skilled day labor. This remodel would have been closer to $200K if it were just contracted out. Business profit, etc. But still.

Monster Cable... or coat hangers?

I'm just sayin', man. :-)

Joe.

[DS-21]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

I think most DIY'ers get aggravated when they see this with the lowest quality drivers available on the internet. Many of todays high end manufacturers, were once cabinet builders who bought their drivers from another source. Now they have migrated to their own drivers. Thiel and Usher are two examples of that...

Cheap drivers in expensive speakers is fine. In fact, if someone can get great measurements (measurements that matter, such as constant directivity in the midrange and up, generally smooth response, and low power compression, none of which the speaker that started this thread could possibly provide) using cheap drivers, good for her/him! I say one should reward value-added. But there's no value added when someone puts a driver in a high-diffraction cabinet without any filtering.

The late Mr. Thiel was always a whole lot more than a cabinet builder. He had very specific ideas about crossovers, and implemented them first with stock drivers, then with modded stock drivers, and eventually as his business grew with bespoke drivers. One can agree or disagree with the approach and the resulting sound (I've disliked almost all the Thiels I've heard, for the record) but there's no question that there was actual thought going into the electronic/acoustic design of their speakers from the very beginning.

What bargains? I am look for one!

Infinity's Primus series is very well engineered and often throwaway cheap. At the high end, I've seen some serious bargains on M-Design stuff. I've bought three of the subs for less than the cost of the electronic parts, which are phenomenal (top-tier underhung Aura drivers, an OEM variant of the Dayton 1kW class G plate amp on the 15" one) and the cabinetry is just plain stunning. I tried to get a matching cabinet made for a Maelstrom-X, and it was going to cost me more than 3500 USD.

[dbe]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

While many will even question why I read it, I was perusing the latest issue of Stereophile and was astounded by an advertisement for Acoustic Technologies speakers. They appear to use the Tang Band W3-1335SB run full-range with no crossover in a transmission line cabinet. The best part? Retail is $2650!

So $80 in drivers (less at OEM prices), $50 in silver wire internally, and a decent looking cabinet sells for $2650? Driver doesn't even get flush mounted? No notch filter to tame the nasties in response? These are right up there with the infamous Von Schweikert Unifields in the low-value-for-the-dollar ranking...

From my own experiences I have learned people buy marketing as much as performance. I don't wish ill-will to companies trying to earn a buck, but at what point do these folks look in the mirror and realize what a load of scat they are flinging?

Anyhow I must say as someone who has seen and heard most all of what is out there in audio I am regularly impressed by the expertise and ingenuity from the folks on here and on diyaudio.com, have a great holiday everybody and keep the creativity flowing!

....end of rant

One thing that no one has brought up here is the price/cost matrixing that is done at the retail level for most products. If a product is sold through a distributor to a store there is a 10:1 factor that is done for retail to production cost. In other words, that $2650 speaker costs the manufacturer $265.00 to produce. The distributor gets his cut and sells it to the retailer that adds NO LESS than a 60% markup over his cost. This is usually 80% to 100% (what is called keystone in the industry). The retailer will almost always make a lot more on the product than the actual producer (manufacturer). We need to remember that the builder/designer/ distributor/retailer web is what has made America a financial powerhouse. Too bad that this is coming to a screeching halt with the regressive governmental programs coming online. Don't worry, the manufacturer won't be around long... there won't be many that will be.

Dave

[MSaturn]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

The issue here is the economy of scale - not every speaker has to be designed from the ground-up, and most are so well within accepted and documented speaker theory that "R&D" costs themselves are a gross inflation and oversight on the part of manufacturers. If Linkwitz and Reilly got paid every time their crossover topology was used .. oh my.

Things like tooling, purchasing, staffing, shipping, marketing - these do indeed add up to a costly product. Here is the problem: it's the R&D that suffers, like most industries, replaced by a need to simply maintain profitability. Novelty and fancy verbiage do far more to sell a product to a low-knowledge consumer than actual features. All of us are high-knowledge consumers, and therefore cannot understand why someone would go out and toss $5,000 on a pair of cables or a TB driver in a fancy box (which is still stupid, there's no reason to defend it. It's like selling an extraordinarily well-painted go-kart in a market full of Porches. Some people really dig paint. A 15hp engine that runs well is still just a 15hp engine.)

I've sold or gifted systems to over 10 of my friends - which is quite a few hi-fi systems to low-knowledge consumers - and all are immediately shocked by what they were missing out on. A few people I know simply do not care, but I gave one of those an 18" subwoofer and all of a sudden speakers were pretty cool.

Go figure.

[donparsons]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

This is the whole point! For me to figure out which plants to plant, how to space them proeprly, and what they are going to look like when they mature would take me a huge effort and I don't care about that particular knowledge. Additionally, it would be a 2 year process and I would have to replace all of the materials again and again until I got it right. AND I would likely injure my back while digging a few holes to throw plants in. :rolleyes:

Many people are in the same boat with woodworking and soldering and don't have any desire whatsoever to build their own.

DIY guys are never going to think speakers like this are a good deal because they know how much the parts cost.

Ever pay a guy to finish the drywall you hung up? $500 and he uses $70 worth of materials, barely breaks a sweat, barely kicks up any dust and works a few hours each day for a few days. Most people would have no problem paying that $500. But for the DIY home improvement guy, it's INSANE.

I run a small landscape business and can charge 1000's of dollars for installing $500 worth of materials. The client loves it, and loves my design, but I think people are crazy to spend that much money......"to dig holes and plant some shrubs".



The speakers in question are overpriced if you ask me. But some companies price their products really high to bring in the people that think expensive stuff will always be better (Bose, MosterCable, etc). This company may only have to sell 10 pair to clear $20,000. Company B that sells them for $500 needs to sell 300 pairs to make the same profit. It boils down to whether you want to work harder packaging up 300 pair, or being an incredible salesman to just 10 people.

[dbe]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

The issue here is the economy of scale - not every speaker has to be designed from the ground-up, and most are so well within accepted and documented speaker theory that "R&D" costs themselves are a gross inflation and oversight on the part of manufacturers. If Linkwitz and Reilly got paid every time their crossover topology was used .. oh my.

Things like tooling, purchasing, staffing, shipping, marketing - these do indeed add up to a costly product. Here is the problem: it's the R&D that suffers, like most industries, replaced by a need to simply maintain profitability. Novelty and fancy verbiage do far more to sell a product to a low-knowledge consumer than actual features. All of us are high-knowledge consumers, and therefore cannot understand why someone would go out and toss $5,000 on a pair of cables or a TB driver in a fancy box (which is still stupid, there's no reason to defend it. It's like selling an extraordinarily well-painted go-kart in a market full of Porches. Some people really dig paint. A 15hp engine that runs well is still just a 15hp engine.)

I've sold or gifted systems to over 10 of my friends - which is quite a few hi-fi systems to low-knowledge consumers - and all are immediately shocked by what they were missing out on. A few people I know simply do not care, but I gave one of those an 18" subwoofer and all of a sudden speakers were pretty cool.

Go figure.

The other, more obvious reality is that Americans have become used to buying crap. Look at everyones' whipping boy, Bloze. We (the DIY hobbiest or small manufacturer) are used to producing quality and undervaluing our labors.

I'm just saying.

Dave

[DDF]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Its funny this topic came up because I was just thinking the other day how unbelievably cheap drivers have become. Woofers, tweeters, mids, they're costs can be so low that it doesn't make any sense trying to rationalize the price of a commercial speaker by the driver cost: all the other costs, especially fixed costs, are the dominant ones.

I recall buying my first tweeter in the mid to late 70s for something like $35 retail. These were Philips soft domes, considered pretty hot stuff back then. Look at what you can buy for $35 retail today in comparison. Now run 30 years of inflation (CPA) and that crap Philips is over $100 in today's dollars. It boggles my mind how much cheaper quality audio is now compared to what it once was. Hell, even my first 20W BARGAIN NAD3020 was $350.

My 2 cents: I thought from the time I was 12 years old that I'd start a speaker company. Where kids in high school doodled pot leaves I was doodling wood grain on 4 way angled towers. Got a university engineering degree towards it, even went for my masters in audio. I soon realized that I'd rather feed my family!

Spelling speakers is a hard hard gig and if you want to make a living, they have to be priced accordingly. Speaker companies are like restaurateurs, they work very hard and so few actually stay in business 10 years on, even if they garner exceptional reviews.

I'm willing to cut these guys some slack.

Dave

[mgrabow]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

We all forgot (post #23).

My Bad...

[mgrabow]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Perhaps this will grounds us all with a hefty dose of amused perspective:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/

--Joe.

Probably a different thread... Monster and coat hanger I would probably agree with. I would also agree that a $20,000 set of cables is BS and your mind will tell you it sounds better (or more spacial or some other BS) because you dont want to admit to yourself that you wasted $20k... but I have a set of lower end audioquests and a low end set of MIT cables. One on the top end (Mids and tweeyters) and one on the bottom (woofers) in a bi-amped set up. One day my wife asked what happened to the bass? I had switched the cabes and the bass was back. If she can pick it out I am leaning towards one of us picking it out...

This is not the case with most cables in my opinion, but there is some [SOME] truth to it..

Monster cable being just copper with almost no special geometry... The coat hanger probably would sound the same... but some guy using CAT5 cable as opposed to monster cable over a significant length? The bass will be choked away for sure...


Now $5000 power cords.... Thats VooDoo for sure...