Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

[philiparcario]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Spelling speakers is a hard hard gig and if you want to make a living, they have to be priced accordingly. Speaker companies are like restaurateurs, they work very hard and so few actually stay in business 10 years on, even if they garner exceptional reviews.

I'm willing to cut these guys some slack.

Dave

I agree that it is a tough business. I guess what happens is when one company can sell junk and get rich and good companies like NHT have to cut way back just to survive. It shows how perception of quality /price rules in the business.

We DiYer's don't like it one bit. I don't want to cut some slack for companies conning the public and I do want to cut slack to companies that put in an effort to build good gear. I just don't have the time to sort out all the companies and decide who goes on the nice list and who goes on the naughty list.

[joekraska]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

The other, more obvious reality is that Americans have become used to buying crap. Look at everyones' whipping boy, Bloze. We (the DIY hobbiest or small manufacturer) are used to producing quality and undervaluing our labors.

This is accurate on several levels. First, I'd say that we negatively value our labors. I.e., our labors provide us with enjoyment per se. So not only do we pride ourselves in buying higher quality parts at prices far below what we'd pay for them integrated into a higher end system, we are treated to the opportunity of an enjoyable hobby and so forth.

This applies to me in several areas. Home improvement, and something I've done in great detail over 15 years: computer systems build outs. Realistically, any computer I've ever built isn't less expensive than one I could have bought, if my time investment is accounted for. But you know, I have spare time, and enjoy my hobbies.

Where these observations get really interesting are when you have a job that pays some large $/hour figure, and you further have opportunity to work extra time any time you like. I.e., what if you can work four extra hours a week, and redirect half of that to a craftsman to make something according to your specs?

Chances are, if you are reading this, you wouldn't do that for audio gear, even though it's the obviously correct economic thing to do.

There's a much higher chance you'd do it for sewage repair. :-)

Joe.

[kevinhaskins]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

What something is worth is what someone will pay. It is as simple as that so the goal of marketing is to get people to think something is worth more than it cost to manufacture and distribute.

Sometimes, when times are bad the cost of something is LESS than what it cost to manufacture. Ask my neighbor who is a contractor trying to build homes in an environment where foreclosed homes sell for much cheaper than he can build one.

Loudspeakers are no different. Perception of what something is worth is what dictates what it sells for. It has a passing relation to the cost of production. Companies that are accomplished at marketing their goods and shaping perception are those who can command a high price.

I wouldn't worry about the poor consumer too much. Running a loudspeaker company is second only to Vegas in ways of throwing your money away quickly. If someone comes to you asking for investment money for a loudspeaker company kick his **** out the door quickly. ;)

[ttan98]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Running a loudspeaker company is second only to Vegas in ways of throwing your money away quickly. If someone comes to you asking for investment money for a loudspeaker company kick his **** out the door quickly. ;)

Building loudspeaker as a business is a mature one, almost every home has a pair of speakers and cheaper ones are imported every year from overseas esp. China. Hence to start a new loudspeaker business one must be "mad" or very brave.

One day say 10 years time computer business(ie PC) will exhibit the same behaviour as loudspeakers.

[joekraska]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

One day say 10 years time computer business(ie PC) will exhibit the same behaviour as loudspeakers.

Already does. The parts, even the assembly--where do you think all those affordable Dell's come from? Even their Enterprise Class gear--you guess it, "made in China".

Joe.

[steevestell]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Tater, while I respect your comments, as someone who has tried to market a speaker commercially I feel I have plenty of experience to draw from. The plain fact of audio is people buy hype and status 90% of the time. The other 10% want something high value and well engineered.Not sure how many prototypes a speaker with no crossover could possibly need....and you can get very nice cabinets made here in the US for less than $500 apiece if you are willing to build a decent sized run.
Reply With Quote.

[DDF]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

I agree that it is a tough business. I guess what happens is when one company can sell junk and get rich and good companies like NHT have to cut way back just to survive. It shows how perception of quality /price rules in the business.

We DiYer's don't like it one bit. I don't want to cut some slack for companies conning the public and I do want to cut slack to companies that put in an effort to build good gear. I just don't have the time to sort out all the companies and decide who goes on the nice list and who goes on the naughty list.

So long as they don't misrepresent the technical aspects of the product, so long as they don't dissapoint the customer by misleading them, then they're free to charge whatever they want.

The real problem with audio is that there are no metrics of excellence, other than fit and finish. Its a main reason I got out.

Take TVs for example, also a sensory experience that is about reproduction of an obviously unrealistic nature (like most audio). I can go on line and quickly find the contrast of an LCD over angle, understand how smooth it replays its images (refresh), and easily find sites measuring colour accuracy.

Try that for loudspeakers. One simple spec such as "3 dB horizontal dispersion window", in degrees, 500 to 8 khz, would make a world of difference. ie how far off angle could you go left-right before the response at any frequency from 500 to 8000 Hz changes by 3 dB? It's the auditory equivalent of off axis LCD contrast, and would tell alot about a fundamental aspect of the speaker's quality.

Or how about maximum SPl at 3% distortion, 50Hz, 100 Hz, 500 Hz, 3 kHz, 7 kHz?

This is brain dead stuff and so easy.

What's held back the audio industry is the brain-dead audio press. They don't demand these sorts of metrics from manufacturers, in fact, they fight such metrics tooth and nail. IMO Harry Pearson made audio culture so feeble and wobbly, it can't fend off attack from virus' and scams.

[lunchmoney]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

I always chuckle at the bose ads when the people who are giving testimonials have no other apparent credentials for reviewing the speakers other than they bought them.

[mzisserson]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

I always chuckle at the bose ads when the people who are giving testimonials have no other apparent credentials for reviewing the speakers other than they bought them.

No different that car companies, Banks, or 99% of every other consumer review out there. :rolleyes:

[Wolf]

***spam*** Again!!!

.

[johnastockman]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Tell me!!! I made a lot of money back in the late '90's and early 2000' retrofitting B&W 800, 801 & 802 with crossovers that actually worked well. The old Matrix 801 with the electrolytics in the mid and mylar tweeter sections came alive when properly implemented. I think Paul Blakemore at Telarc is still using his.

I've done the same thing at my home with other people's speakers and my recently retired (to a friend's place) long time reference. Seen a lot of sad speaker owners leave checks here for replacements. They couldn't understand why I wouldn't take trade ins :eek:

Dave

I remember the B&W's...one of our techs who did the measuring came up with some improvements to some of the B&W XO's and a few other brands, Klipsch was one. Cool that you mentioned that! Don't ask me exactly what, I can't remember, except they were XO changes only and it was a noticeable improvement in the balance and smoothness of the mids and high-end. We got to the point where we just sold 'em with the mods already in there, instead of offering the "upgraded XO" as extra. I still have most of my notes that I took while I worked there...20 years of notes on listening impressions, different brands, measured data vs company claims, the whole works. And many notes on the Sunday night geek fests and some details about how my Speakerlab S2's trounced many comers in both measurements and listening impressions. I had them there almost every Sunday night. A very talented guy I worked with had built a pair of the old Klipsch K-horn clones that Speakerlab offered as a parts kit/plans only. I longed to build a pair, but the folded horn design was beyond my woodworking abilities and the subsequent weight would have been a problem. His new wife wouldn't let him keep "those monsters" in the house, so the owner allowed him to keep them at the store in one of the "high-end/expensive" rooms. And he had the speakers before he had a wife. I was very fortunate to work for a guy who started out as a teenager at Lafayette Electronics, was a big DIY enthusiast and opened his first (of eventually four) local audio stores in the early 70's in Tacoma, Wa. He took the time to listen, measure and be very selective about brands he carried. He built an anechoic chamber in the warehouse of the Olympia store (where I worked). All our listening rooms were designed like a living room/family room. Obviously, there are many different types of spaces and room issues, but we tried to give something closer to real world, in addition to the measurements. We opened up the store on Sunday evenings for a run-whatcha-brung and listen-to-the-new-stuff sessions. A total geek-fest, but folks could bring in their speakers, electronics, and try them out with different equipment. Of course, speakers were the most popular. It was a great job and I am very grateful for the experience and knowledge I gained.

I'm familiar with the sad face when people realize that the speakers they thought were great, are not. Yes, by themselves with no reference, acceptable. Like in another post, if they're happy, who am I to dictate a price limit or a DIY design. I know a few that like their wave radio, or those old floor-standing 15" woofer Cerwin Vega 3-ways. But most want what they hear at my place. And I can sometimes use their old cabinet...and like you, I don't take trade-ins. "Can't you use the boxes for something?" Uh, no, not ones that are built that poorly; even bracing can't really help. Sorry, rambling on...

John A.

[brianpowers27]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Spelling speakers is a hard hard gig and if you want to make a living, they have to be priced accordingly. Speaker companies are like restaurateurs, they work very hard and so few actually stay in business 10 years on, even if they garner exceptional reviews.

I'm willing to cut these guys some slack.

Dave

I did a business plan for my MBA on a fake speaker company. There is no money in making speakers that cost any less than $2-4k. There is relatively little demand for speakers sold at that price point. I put the business of speakers in the same line as guitar players. The term starving artist comes to mind.

So long as they don't misrepresent the technical aspects of the product, so long as they don't dissapoint the customer by misleading them, then they're free to charge whatever they want.

The real problem with audio is that there are no metrics of excellence, other than fit and finish. Its a main reason I got out.

Take TVs for example, also a sensory experience that is about reproduction of an obviously unrealistic nature (like most audio). I can go on line and quickly find the contrast of an LCD over angle, understand how smooth it replays its images (refresh), and easily find sites measuring colour accuracy.

I think that one thing people need to consider is the actual consumer. Most DIY speakers are way over engineered for the potential customer. Given the priorities of most consumers, there are better ways to entertain themselves vs spending a load of money on high end speakers. Build a high end media server that is user friendly enough for your grandma to use and you will make money.

[dbe]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

And many notes on the Sunday night geek fests and some details about how my Speakerlab S2's trounced many comers in both measurements and listening impressions. I had them there almost every Sunday night. A very talented guy I worked with had built a pair of the old Klipsch K-horn clones that Speakerlab offered as a parts kit/plans only. I longed to build a pair, but the folded horn design was beyond my woodworking abilities and the subsequent weight would have been a problem.
John A.

John,

You make me feel wistful with your mention of Speakerlab. Pat Snyder was my first real crossover guru. He put out the Technical Notes and I still have them here somewhere and use his methods, like cascading hi-pass networks off of the bandpass network in a three way to get greater lf attenuation in the high-pass... something that I almost never see done anymore. It makes a very clean sounding tweeter network. Also his thoughts on sealed alignments were pretty good. Mila Nestrovik's designs were way too smart for the masses. Somehow it was more fun because of the challenges back then.

Man, I'm feelin' old here. Good, but old.

Dave

[donparsons]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Build a high end media server that is user friendly enough for your grandma to use and you will make money.

Not true... One of my clients founded and developed sonos. It is a great product and imo a much better interface than the ipod, and I don't think they are making much money. :(

Retail is tough period...

[dbe]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Build a high end media server that is user friendly enough for your grandma to use and you will make money.

They don't get much friendlier than this:

http://www.olive.us/

They aren't exactly rolling in the dough.

Dave