Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

[dbe]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

I still have a beautiful Speakerlab catalog. Among the pages there is a section on real-life crossovers recommended for their drivers. If someone wants to scan it so more people can see it I will be happy to loan the catalog out free of charge as long as I get it back.

I'll try to dig up my old SL Technical Notes and get them scanned. Maybe we could put together a SL library of sorts.

Dave

[dbe]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Apologies to Nestorovic...looks like I shoulda looked in the catalog before I typed away and mis-spelled his name. Thought I had it right. Yes, the S10's...the S2 was a 10" woofer 2-way, just like the large Advent. The XO had a lot of parts and crossed the tweeter at 1500Hz, it was 3rd or 4th order, I can't recall right now. It was either a Phillips or Peerless tweeter...I still have it and it works great. S'lab used many Peerless drivers in those designs from the 70's. Here's the tweeter:



I thought it was a Peerless, but someone here said it is a Phillips.

John A.

Yeah, That's a Philips. For some reason AD1620 is sticking in my head.

Dave

[johnastockman]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Yes the same Nestorovic. I built a pair of the S10's in the early 80's. As I recall, they had a little Phillips tweeter, 4-5" paper mid with a rear chamber, an 8" and 10" woofer. The Nestorovic crossover was designed to gradually turn the 10" into a passive radiator as the bass got lower. (20 + parts in the crossover) Tweeter wasn't that great, but man they could thump. Had them re-coned once, played them for 16 years. SpeakerLab was cool before DIY was cool!

Apologies to Nestorovic...looks like I shoulda looked in the catalog before I typed away and mis-spelled his name. Thought I had it right. Yes, the S10's...the S2 was a 10" woofer 2-way, just like the large Advent. The XO had a lot of parts and crossed the tweeter at 1500Hz, it was 3rd or 4th order, I can't recall right now. It was either a Phillips or Peerless tweeter...I still have it and it works great. S'lab used many Peerless drivers in those designs from the 70's. Here's the tweeter:



I thought it was a Peerless, but someone here said it is a Phillips.

John A.

[LouC]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Yes the same Nestorovic. I built a pair of the S10's in the early 80's. As I recall, they had a little Phillips tweeter, 4-5" paper mid with a rear chamber, an 8" and 10" woofer. The Nestorovic crossover was designed to gradually turn the 10" into a passive radiator as the bass got lower. (20 + parts in the crossover) Tweeter wasn't that great, but man they could thump. Had them re-coned once, played them for 16 years. SpeakerLab was cool before DIY was cool!

[johnastockman]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

John,

You make me feel wistful with your mention of Speakerlab. Pat Snyder was my first real crossover guru. He put out the Technical Notes and I still have them here somewhere and use his methods, like cascading hi-pass networks off of the bandpass network in a three way to get greater lf attenuation in the high-pass... something that I almost never see done anymore. It makes a very clean sounding tweeter network. Also his thoughts on sealed alignments were pretty good. Mila Nestrovik's designs were way too smart for the masses. Somehow it was more fun because of the challenges back then.

Man, I'm feelin' old here. Good, but old.

Dave

Thanks Dave, I guess at over 50, I'm old too...but still good. The two founders of Speakerlab were the first intro I had into DIY speakers. In the early 70's, they held informal classes in Seattle, showing how compromised commercial speakers were and with a decent, well thought out XO design (and a well-built cabinet), they could be so much better. I went to all those classes and asked a lot of questions. It was their XO designs that were well above what was available from retail speakers and I proved it many times with the modest S2's that I built using the parts kit and the enclosures I made. Speakerlab is still is business, but only has the one store left, on Roosevelt in Seattle's "audio row", down the street from Definitive. Not much "audio" on the row anymore, sadly. I remember when the Nestrovik designs were implemented. I still have some catalogs from that time. The S50 and DAS-8 speakers were the best I have ever heard, even to today. Sure, aural memory is known to be less-than-accurate, but I was a note-taker and took a lot of notes. When they came up with Compulab in the 80's, same idea with speakers applied to computers, it facilitated the end and IIRC, Speakerlab was bought by some other folks. They still offer a fine product and I really enjoy the time I get when I visit there once or twice a year. And still better than more expensive stuff over at Definitive. You can send me a PM if you want to wax nostalgic...I might be able to dig up my old notes. I know I still have 'em, just a matter of finding them.

John A.

[dbe]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

I'm sure there are a tons of great products that failed in the marketing dept. The point I will make is that these days people are more willing to pay for convenience and overall system integration than they are willing to pay for individual high end components.

No doubt. Another is that consumers have been willing to pay too much for junk. Consumerism is like politics: we get what we deserve.

Dave

[brianpowers27]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

They don't get much friendlier than this:

http://www.olive.us/

They aren't exactly rolling in the dough.

Dave

I'm sure there are a tons of great products that failed in the marketing dept. The point I will make is that these days people are more willing to pay for convenience and overall system integration than they are willing to pay for individual high end components.

[joekraska]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Yah, in the business I work in, employees cost 150% *more* (2.5X total) to employ vice their salary, after all secondary costs are factored in. That boggles the mind of most folks who don't know what running the cost of a business can be.

Joe.

[hobbyhands]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Tater, while I respect your comments, as someone who has tried to market a speaker commercially I feel I have plenty of experience to draw from. The plain fact of audio is people buy hype and status 90% of the time. The other 10% want something high value and well engineered.

Not sure how many prototypes a speaker with no crossover could possibly need....and you can get very nice cabinets made here in the US for less than $500 apiece if you are willing to build a decent sized run.

I think the keyword here was try! There is a big difference!

Running a business requires 16 hours days and lots of money. Even for a small business. I ran my own busines for many years, mortaged my house and was fairly Unfortunatley dues too a long period of illness I had to sell it.

I have a very high respect for those who run a business. While I do believe some loudspeakers may be overpriced. The business has to take into account many, many things which raise the price.

[dbe]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

If you're getting rid of Cary gear, you're probably moving up in terms of fidelity...

(I've heard two pieces of Cary gear. One was broken right out of the box, and the other had an obviously colored frequency response. So I consider them one of those "'high-end'/low-fidelity" companies, like conrad johnson, Audio Research, Audio Note, and so on.




What's to set up? Just string an optical cable from the mini to one's receiver - OK, technically one has to also either find an optical cable with a mini-tos end, or buy one the toslink-minitos adapter from PE for like 2 bucks as well - and hit the "front row" button on the remote to call up one's iTunes library. Exclusive of importing the library from another Mac, we're talking a 30sec job, tops.

No need for server software, or anything. It's all right there.



Plenty of them, from my fairly cheap B&O RX2 with MMC1 cart to 5-figure Oracle and other setups. I've also owned an LP12 (piece of garbage) and heard the Eminent Technology air-bearing tonearm on something that looked impressive. (Most of the expensive turntables look really cool, and sound pretty sorry.)

Yes, sometimes vinyl can sound better - when the digital mix is needlessly crippled compared to the vinyl mix because of audiophool idiocy. The remix/remaster of Pearl Jam's "Ten" is a top example: the CDs are hamstrung as victims of the loudness wars, while the vinyl has more dynamic range even though the format is not as capable of supporting wide dynamic range. But if they had released the same mix on even 16/44.1 it would spank the snap-crackle-pop version in terms of sound quality.

Sorry, I'm not so old and decrepit that I've lost my ability to hear and to rationally correlate the signals coming into my ears with their relative quality, so vinyl as a medium for sound quality is totally unappealing. The only reason vinyl is at all a part of my life is because I inherited a bunch of great records from my mother.

Whatever.

Dave

[DS-21]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

A/V system. I sold all of my Cary gear and my speakers so I am back to square one.

If you're getting rid of Cary gear, you're probably moving up in terms of fidelity...

(I've heard two pieces of Cary gear. One was broken right out of the box, and the other had an obviously colored frequency response. So I consider them one of those "'high-end'/low-fidelity" companies, like conrad johnson, Audio Research, Audio Note, and so on.

My grandma roomie has no desire to deal with setting up a Mini as a server,

What's to set up? Just string an optical cable from the mini to one's receiver - OK, technically one has to also either find an optical cable with a mini-tos end, or buy one the toslink-minitos adapter from PE for like 2 bucks as well - and hit the "front row" button on the remote to call up one's iTunes library. Exclusive of importing the library from another Mac, we're talking a 30sec job, tops.

No need for server software, or anything. It's all right there.

As for a rock dragged through a petrochemical groove, what kind of vinyl playback system do you have or have heard that you are comparing all of this to?

Plenty of them, from my fairly cheap B&O RX2 with MMC1 cart to 5-figure Oracle and other setups. I've also owned an LP12 (piece of garbage) and heard the Eminent Technology air-bearing tonearm on something that looked impressive. (Most of the expensive turntables look really cool, and sound pretty sorry.)

Yes, sometimes vinyl can sound better - when the digital mix is needlessly crippled compared to the vinyl mix because of audiophool idiocy. The remix/remaster of Pearl Jam's "Ten" is a top example: the CDs are hamstrung as victims of the loudness wars, while the vinyl has more dynamic range even though the format is not as capable of supporting wide dynamic range. But if they had released the same mix on even 16/44.1 it would spank the snap-crackle-pop version in terms of sound quality.

Sorry, I'm not so old and decrepit that I've lost my ability to hear and to rationally correlate the signals coming into my ears with their relative quality, so vinyl as a medium for sound quality is totally unappealing. The only reason vinyl is at all a part of my life is because I inherited a bunch of great records from my mother.

[dbe]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Ho ho ho to yo too Dave, from Duc HO!!!

Btw, since you're looking into computer play back, if you're a PC guy, do check out XXHighend @ phasure.com. Definitely the best player soundwise, IMHO. UI is pretty bad, but the sound is heavenly, way better than foobar.

Duc

I'll check it out. I have been using foobar so it will be interesting to hear the difference.

Dave

[hoxuanduc]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

Ho, ho, ho, Duc. You, too.

Dave

Ho ho ho to yo too Dave, from Duc HO!!!

Btw, since you're looking into computer play back, if you're a PC guy, do check out XXHighend @ phasure.com. Definitely the best player soundwise, IMHO. UI is pretty bad, but the sound is heavenly, way better than foobar.

Duc

[dbe]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

As far as saving money, the best deals in audio are found in pro gears, esp. used powered monitors, not DIY. Also easier to sell if you don't like them.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!!!

Duc

Ho, ho, ho, Duc. You, too.

Dave

[hoxuanduc]

Re: Long live DIY/what is wrong with audio...

As far as saving money, the best deals in audio are found in pro gears, esp. used powered monitors, not DIY. Also easier to sell if you don't like them.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!!!

Duc